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Thread: All those what if SCENARIO'S

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    All those what if SCENARIO'S

    We finally have a real answer to all those " Scenario's " answering the door ARMED..
    also posted in the Michigan forum

    http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/...-holding-a-gun

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Good thing they were horrible shots.

    And good grief!!!!
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Idiots.

    Then they arrested him by lying to someone. Perjurers. At least some of them deserve a felony conviction.

    And having to wear a "STUPID" sign around their neck for a couple of years.

    The previous is a Blatant rant on my part against anyone who might abuse an Octogenarian. But odds are he prudently answered a door while armed. It is Detroit. and the PD upon seeing a firearm, not withstanding which way it was pointed, fired on him. Likely scenario. Or he could have been Billy Bad A** octogenarian and they were perfectly justified. If he wasn't threatening them, my first 4 sentences stand. otherwise, well time will tell.
    Last edited by OldCurlyWolf; 03-29-2011 at 12:10 AM.
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    We have to look at a couple of things here. One it was not a no knock warrant so they did knock on the door and supposedly announce that they were police and were in uniform. That is good. They were there to arrest someone for shooting at police so I am sure that made them very very tense and ready to do battle figuring that whoever came to the door would be the person that did the shooting. They also probably figured that if that person had already fired shots at police that he would probably do it again and I'll bet they figured that no one would answer the door.

    All that figuring went wrong when the grandfather answered the door and they saw the gun. Since they were already prepared to do battle when they saw a gun they started shooting not even looking at who was holding the gun. A royal screw-up by the police. I don't see any reason to arrest the grandfather, in fact the city should be responsible for his medical bills and the officers involved should go back for some more shoot-don't-shoot training. As for the grandson that was the cause of all this needs his butt whupped by grandpa.

  5. #5
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PT111 View Post
    We have to look at a couple of things here. One it was not a no knock warrant so they did knock on the door and supposedly announce that they were police and were in uniform. That is good. They were there to arrest someone for shooting at police so I am sure that made them very very tense and ready to do battle figuring that whoever came to the door would be the person that did the shooting. They also probably figured that if that person had already fired shots at police that he would probably do it again and I'll bet they figured that no one would answer the door.

    All that figuring went wrong when the grandfather answered the door and they saw the gun. Since they were already prepared to do battle when they saw a gun they started shooting not even looking at who was holding the gun. A royal screw-up by the police. I don't see any reason to arrest the grandfather, in fact the city should be responsible for his medical bills and the officers involved should go back for some more shoot-don't-shoot training. As for the grandson that was the cause of all this needs his butt whupped by grandpa.
    They should not be cops, they handled the whole situation wrong. You don't get to get riled up before an arrest you do your job sensibly or you don't do it. We are an armed country and we all should be prepared to be greeted by a firearm when we knock on anyone's door.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Based upon the scant information presented in the article, any judgment being passed now is woefully premature.

    Critical questions remaining to be answered from other sources:

    1. Did the officers announce that they were police?

    2. Did the officers provide a reasonable amount of time for the door to be answered?

    3. Who opened the door?

    4. Did the homeowner have the gun in a holster or in his hand?

    5. Did the homeowner point the gun at the officers?

    6. Did the homeowner say anything leading the officers to believe that they were in danger?

    7. Did the homeowner resist the execution of the warrant?

    The officers were trying to arrest a person who already showed no compunction against shooting at them. They were understandably in a hyper-ready state. Unless we learn more details, reasonable judgments could range from, "These cops wanted to exact their revenge, went to this home fully intending to get into a shoot-out, were on a hair-trigger, and used the slightest (unjustifiable) excuse to open fire," to, "These cops, who knew that they were serving a very dangerous warrant and knew that the suspect was predisposed to shooting officers, announced themselves as officers, found an armed man (gun in hand) at the door when he opened it, and reacted to his verbal resistance, combined with his dangerous handling of his weapon, reasonably believing that he was about to stop the execution of the warrant by using deadly force."

    Anyone who claims to know which of the above (or any other scenario) happened based on the scant details provided by the article is just blowing so much smoke.

    My current inclination is to think that the officers were probably too ready to mix it up, but, like I have not yet heard in this thread, I don't know.
    Last edited by eye95; 03-27-2011 at 09:22 AM.

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    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    They should not be cops, they handled the whole situation wrong. You don't get to get riled up before an arrest you do your job sensibly or you don't do it. We are an armed country and we all should be prepared to be greeted by a firearm when we knock on anyone's door.
    +1 well spoken
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    And you'v got to remember where this occurred--a working-class neighborhood in DETROIT. Of course "grandpa" answered the door with a gun. Any rational, responsible person would.

    Heck, I think that anyone on this forum would agree that answering your door in Detroit unarmed would be grossly irresponsible.

    But the news story leaves a LOT of information out, as others have pointed out. I reserve judgement on this one until there is more info...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 03-27-2011 at 04:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    They should not be cops, they handled the whole situation wrong. You don't get to get riled up before an arrest you do your job sensibly or you don't do it. We are an armed country and we all should be prepared to be greeted by a firearm when we knock on anyone's door.
    Do you mean to say that if someone can't serve an arrest warrant on someone they know has already attempeted to kill policement with the same calm, cool demeanor that they would approaching a jaywalker then they shouldn't ba a cop? With that requirement there is going to eb a lot of job openings in LEO. I suppose a soldier riding down a road in Iraq shouldn't be any more alert than riding around on bace back here in the states either. When you know there is someone right around the orner waiting to kill you then most people will get a little more excited.

    Does that justify the officer's overreaction. No it doesn't but I don't know the details and I doubt that you do either but to say that they shouldn't be more on guard while serving an arrest warrant on someone for trying to kill cops is going to make everyone involved more tense and quicker on the trigger. That is exactly what I think happened here.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I have no problem with that meaning there would be a lot less LEO.

    And yes it is exactly what I mean.

    P.S. Please stop the equating of police to military in war zones, it is very insulting.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Please stop the equating of police to military in war zones, it is very insulting.
    I'd be glad to, as soon as they stop acting that way.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    I'd be glad to, as soon as they stop acting that way.
    LOl....I meant it is insulting to us the citizens equating us to enemy combatants.....which yes they do act that way and are even trained that way.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member jdholmes's Avatar
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    I think Eye95 said it well. There is very little information provided, and we were not there.

    I have been shocked with how many people on this forum seem to be so quick to jump to a rash judgment against the police.

    Yes, I understand we have been privy to some shocking video in the past few years that show some officers behaving badly...but those cases do not represent every police officer and are not a prime example of the average encounter.

    My father was an officer for twenty years, my grandfather was an officer for over forty, and I have an uncle that currently serves. I have respect for every police officer until they give me reason not to. We want them to treat us with respect...let's give them a little and give them the same benefit of the doubt as we give the citizen in these encounters.

    We don't know what really happened here.

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    I think there's multiple reasons for why people are quick to jump on the police. One is the fact that the police are becoming more militarized. And in doing so are starting to treat citizens more like suspects/combatants rather than citizens to protect. Another thing is the perceived elitism or "us vs them" mentality. After that is the fact that the cops enforce laws regardless of if the people disagree with those laws. This leads to resentment against the cops as they are the ones actually carrying out the laws. And then there's all of the cop shows which generally show the cops being hostile, good cop/bad cop, and shooting people. Believe it or not but shows like NCIS, CSI, Criminal Minds, etc do have an effect on people's views even if the shows aren't realistic.

    So now you have elitist cops who are more militarized/hostile dealing citizens who trust them even less than before, might be influenced by TV, and are starting to arm theirselves. Of course there's going to be more confrontations given this. I know there's plenty of people on both sides of the aisle that don't share these attitudes, but these attitudes do appear to be on the rise.

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    Using generalizations about LEOs to explain why many generalize about LEOs is just a tad circular.

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    There was a time when both ploicemen and judges were given discretion on how to enforce laws and could make decisions on what they did or didn't do. Most of us long for those days because we were on the side that benefited from it if we are old enough or imagine that we would be on that side if we had been around during that time. I remember the times when if the highway patrolman found out about two guys wanting to race their cars he would carry them out to a deserted highway, block it off and fire his revolver to start the race. Can you even think about such a thing happening today? What changed? For one thing those that did not benefit from it started to complain and file lawsuits. those that felt they didn't benefit filed lawsuits. Those that did benefit but felt they didn't benefit enough filed lawsuits.

    Leo no longer have any discretion in enforcing laws and judges no longer have discretion in setencing. Everything is supposedly cut and dried with all being treated equal. But we cannot take human nature out of it and when someone sees a friend shot down he is going to react differently than if it is a perfect stranger whether he is a cop, a citizen or a soldier. That is unless they are a sociopath who was born without the ability to feel emotions. (Some claim that it is the psychopath who is born that way, not the sociopath) Either way unless you are Mr. Spock or Data you will want to use discretion in everything you do and expect others to also use it when dealing with you but not with what you consider BG's. As Paul Harvey said we long for the good old days because we weren't old and probably weren't good.

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    I have no quarrel with going to the door with a handgun at the ready. It may be even more prudent in Detroit than in my neighborhood to do that.

    But looking out a window/peephole to see who/what is on the outside may also be prident, as opposed to yanking the door open without knowing who/what/where is on the other side. (No, I am not suggesting Gramps suddenly/violently threw the door open and appeared with gun in hand like pop-goes-the-weasel.)

    Just some common sense.

    And has been noted, there is more we do not know and need to know before we do any specific Monday-morning quarterbacking about this incident. Glad to hear Gramps does not have life-threatening wounds and apparent;y no cops were injured.

    stay safe.

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    [QUOTE=jdholmes;1496717]

    I have been shocked with how many people on this forum seem to be so quick to jump to a rash judgment against the police.

    Thats funny I have been equaly shocked by how many police officers jump to rash judgment of the citizens of this country.

    You earn respect it is not given just because you are a (fill in the blank).

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orphan View Post

    Thats funny I have been equaly shocked by how many police officers jump to rash judgment of the citizens of this country.

    You earn respect it is not given just because you are a (fill in the blank).
    +1
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orphan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jdholmes View Post

    I have been shocked with how many people on this forum seem to be so quick to jump to a rash judgment against the police.
    Thats funny I have been equaly shocked by how many police officers jump to rash judgment of the citizens of this country.

    You earn respect it is not given just because you are a (fill in the blank).
    Let me fill in your blank. Sort of.

    IMO, one is given respect because he is a person. Until he, as an individual, not as a member of a given profession, demonstrates that does not deserve my respect, he gets it. Period.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PT111 View Post
    We have to look at a couple of things here. One it was not a no knock warrant so they did knock on the door and supposedly announce that they were police and were in uniform. That is good. They were there to arrest someone for shooting at police so I am sure that made them very very tense and ready to do battle figuring that whoever came to the door would be the person that did the shooting. They also probably figured that if that person had already fired shots at police that he would probably do it again and I'll bet they figured that no one would answer the door.

    All that figuring went wrong when the grandfather answered the door and they saw the gun. Since they were already prepared to do battle when they saw a gun they started shooting not even looking at who was holding the gun. A royal screw-up by the police. I don't see any reason to arrest the grandfather, in fact the city should be responsible for his medical bills and the officers involved should go back for some more shoot-don't-shoot training. As for the grandson that was the cause of all this needs his butt whupped by grandpa.
    "An unfortunate accident" yet they arrested a man for having a legal gun in his own home after attempting to murder him. What BS! Surprised the hero cops didn't shoot his wheelchair bound wife too. After all, she may have had an Uzi under her blanket. The old guy must not have seen the SS armbands on the hero stormtroopers. When I open the door to someone I don't know, I have my right hand behind the door--with a Hi-Power in it.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Based upon the scant information presented in the article, any judgment being passed now is woefully premature.

    Critical questions remaining to be answered from other sources:

    1. Did the officers announce that they were police?

    2. Did the officers provide a reasonable amount of time for the door to be answered?

    3. Who opened the door?

    4. Did the homeowner have the gun in a holster or in his hand?

    5. Did the homeowner point the gun at the officers?

    6. Did the homeowner say anything leading the officers to believe that they were in danger?

    7. Did the homeowner resist the execution of the warrant?

    The officers were trying to arrest a person who already showed no compunction against shooting at them. They were understandably in a hyper-ready state. Unless we learn more details, reasonable judgments could range from, "These cops wanted to exact their revenge, went to this home fully intending to get into a shoot-out, were on a hair-trigger, and used the slightest (unjustifiable) excuse to open fire," to, "These cops, who knew that they were serving a very dangerous warrant and knew that the suspect was predisposed to shooting officers, announced themselves as officers, found an armed man (gun in hand) at the door when he opened it, and reacted to his verbal resistance, combined with his dangerous handling of his weapon, reasonably believing that he was about to stop the execution of the warrant by using deadly force."

    Anyone who claims to know which of the above (or any other scenario) happened based on the scant details provided by the article is just blowing so much smoke.

    My current inclination is to think that the officers were probably too ready to mix it up, but, like I have not yet heard in this thread, I don't know.
    At least at this point, unusual as it may seem, I agree with Eye--in general. However, the warrant was not for an 86 year old man. It the cops were so stupid that they couldn't tell he wasn't the suspect, and they had authority only against the supect, they shouldn't be wearing a badge. I have no doubt they were expecting possible trouble. What they found was an innocent man completely within his right to have a weapon in his hand in HIS home and they gunned him down. While more facts are indeed needed, this case at present reeks of out of control, trigger happy moronic cops. And who said there was "verbal resistence"? Or that they identified themselves as cops or clowns from the local circus? I will say the prosecutor will quickly drop the charges and I see a big payday for this guy.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PT111 View Post
    Do you mean to say that if someone can't serve an arrest warrant on someone they know has already attempeted to kill policement with the same calm, cool demeanor that they would approaching a jaywalker then they shouldn't ba a cop? With that requirement there is going to eb a lot of job openings in LEO. I suppose a soldier riding down a road in Iraq shouldn't be any more alert than riding around on bace back here in the states either. When you know there is someone right around the orner waiting to kill you then most people will get a little more excited.

    Does that justify the officer's overreaction. No it doesn't but I don't know the details and I doubt that you do either but to say that they shouldn't be more on guard while serving an arrest warrant on someone for trying to kill cops is going to make everyone involved more tense and quicker on the trigger. That is exactly what I think happened here.
    The point is the man they gunned down was guilty of NOTHING. In his own home, legally holding a pistol for self protection of himself and his wheel chair bound wife. He was not a threat to anyone as of right now's information. In combat, it's a different story, so the metaphor doesn't work. Soldiers deal with enemies; cops, what a ******* joke, "serve and protect." "Quicker on the trigger" is a sign of incompetence or cowardice. If either applied, then " With that requirement there is going to eb a lot of job openings in LEO" I hope becomes true. And I would judge both did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Let me fill in your blank. Sort of.

    IMO, one is given respect because he is a person. Until he, as an individual, not as a member of a given profession, demonstrates that does not deserve my respect, he gets it. Period.
    Eye I disagree, respect can not be given until you know that person. How can you respect someone when you dont know what there is to respect.

    All persons I meet no matter whom they are start out just above neutral and as I get to know them the respect comes or there is no respect. The people that my life crosses paths with range all the way from great respect to downright distain but they all start out about the same.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdholmes View Post
    I think Eye95 said it well. There is very little information provided, and we were not there.

    I have been shocked with how many people on this forum seem to be so quick to jump to a rash judgment against the police.

    Yes, I understand we have been privy to some shocking video in the past few years that show some officers behaving badly...but those cases do not represent every police officer and are not a prime example of the average encounter.

    My father was an officer for twenty years, my grandfather was an officer for over forty, and I have an uncle that currently serves. I have respect for every police officer until they give me reason not to. We want them to treat us with respect...let's give them a little and give them the same benefit of the doubt as we give the citizen in these encounters.

    We don't know what really happened here.
    We are talking about an instant case. Not all cops, but these who gunned down an 86 year old man in his home. No one is bashing all cops, but to give THESE cops the same benefit of the doubt is difficult with an 86 year old man lying in a pool of his own blood for doing nothing wrong. Cops should be held to a higher standard. If they are successful in this measure, they deserve our thanks and respect. If they are not, they deserve our contempt. I've said it before many times: good cops, unless they do something extraordinary, get no press. Bad ones always do. So, it does appear to be disproportionate, many more bad than good. I don't believe that, but when talking about ostensibly 'bad' cops, I don't cut them any slack. The burden of justifying their actions is solely on them. And the likelihood of the usual coverup is rampant.

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