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Thread: Ask me about Law Enforcement Jurisdiction questions

  1. #1
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    Ask me about Law Enforcement Jurisdiction questions

    I feel I am pretty brushed up. Being a Criminal Justice major, someone who is attempting to get into the field of law enforcement, and someone who has several relatives and friends in law enforcement, I feel I can answer these type of questions.

    I know there's a lot of debate on what type of authority different types of law enforcement has in a particular area. I may not be able to answer them in regards to other states, but I can for Washington State, and much of the knowledge can be used for others as well.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    A man gets on a Metro Bus on the 1600 block of Pennsylvania Ave in Washington DC. A passenger notices that he is CCing a gun in a holster on his belt under his sportscoat, and calls 911. By the time the bus driver is notified that he needs to secure the bus and prepare for LE response, he is making a stop on the 900 block of Pennsylvania Ave.

    The MWAG is not an LEO, and is, in fact, carrying illegally.

    Who responds?

    Who has ultimate jurisdiction?

    Which court will ultimately try his case, should it go to court?

    Yes, this is sort of a trick question, but I'm interested to see how a CJ major would answer it...

    Good luck...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    BWAAHAAHHAHAAA!

    Dreamer has already posted a challenge. I'm just amazed that a CJ major "attempting to get into the field of law enforcement" can consider himself "pretty brushed up".

    Aaron 1124, welcome to the forum, and I mean that quite sincerely. If you're offended by my initial response, please know that it's based on the long-standing principle that you should "never take legal advice from a cop". They're wrong more often than not.

    If you doubt that, just spend some time here on OCDO reading about encounters where people were seized without warrant and threatened with arrest and charges, despite being completely legal at the time.

    Stick around, read, and learn. If you continue your quest to be employed as a police officer, you'll get a better and far more accurate legal education here on the OCDO forum, than you will in any police academy.

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    [The original contents of my post are no longer relevant. Deleted. I will say that KBCraig is a true mensch.]
    Last edited by eye95; 03-29-2011 at 09:02 AM.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    A man gets on a Metro Bus on the 1600 block of Pennsylvania Ave in Washington DC. A passenger notices that he is CCing a gun in a holster on his belt under his sportscoat, and calls 911. By the time the bus driver is notified that he needs to secure the bus and prepare for LE response, he is making a stop on the 900 block of Pennsylvania Ave.

    The MWAG is not an LEO, and is, in fact, carrying illegally.

    Who responds?

    Who has ultimate jurisdiction?

    Which court will ultimately try his case, should it go to court?

    Yes, this is sort of a trick question, but I'm interested to see how a CJ major would answer it...

    Good luck...
    1600 block of Penn Ave. So he just had lunch with obooba?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    A man gets on a Metro Bus on the 1600 block of Pennsylvania Ave in Washington DC. A passenger notices that he is CCing a gun in a holster on his belt under his sportscoat, and calls 911. By the time the bus driver is notified that he needs to secure the bus and prepare for LE response, he is making a stop on the 900 block of Pennsylvania Ave.

    The MWAG is not an LEO, and is, in fact, carrying illegally.

    Who responds?

    Who has ultimate jurisdiction?

    Which court will ultimately try his case, should it go to court?

    Yes, this is sort of a trick question, but I'm interested to see how a CJ major would answer it...

    Good luck...
    A few questions, first! In Washington D.C., what type of offense is the offense you have described? Is it a Misdemeanor offense, or a felony offense? Also, do the public transit companies have their own law enforcement? For example, here in Washington (State), Metro Transit Police are contracted King County Sheriff's Deputies. They have sole jurisdiction over any offenses that occur while on Metro Transit property, although, any commissioned law enforcement may respond.

    This is definitely a tricky question. If it were in (almost) any other location, it wouldn't be so gray. I am not seeing any specific reason why this case wouldn't be handled in the Superior Court of D.C.. It would seem that the crime initially occurred on the 1600 Block.
    Last edited by Aaron1124; 03-26-2011 at 11:45 AM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    DC buses are policed by DC Transit Police.

    The streets of DC, however, are policed by DC Metropolitan Police.

    The 1600 block is where the White House is, and falls under the the Secret Service.

    The area between the 1600 block and the 900 block goes near several areas designated as US Parkland, and therefore is under jursdiction of the US Park Police.

    The FBI Headquarters is on the 900 Block of Penn. Ave.

    Any "terrorist-related" event occurring on transit in the US may fall under TSA and DHS jurisdiction.

    If the firearm is owned by someone who is not a DC resident, BATFE may have jurisdiction.

    Ultimately, in DC, it depends on which LEA responds first, and which LEA decided it WANTS jurisdiction. Usually, events like this get handed to DCMP or DCTP, unless they actually occur on Federal property, or directly involve a Federal Official.

    In other words, jurisdictional authority in DC is a crazy-quilt patchwork of "not my responsibility"... Unless it's a high-profile case that an agency can get political traction from...

    So pretty much ANY LEA you could name in DC would be the right answer... Or the wrong one...


    And, BTW, carrying a concealed firearm in DC without a license is a FELONY, and carries penalties of up to 5 years in prison and up to $10,000 in fines, and that would most likely be ON TOP OF the charge of possessing an unregistered firearm, which is a misdemeanor carrying up to a 1 year/$1000 penalty. And remember that in DC, your ammo must also be registered, and EVERY round that is not legally possessed is a FELONY...

    http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com...weapon-charges

    http://mpdc.dc.gov/mpdc/cwp/view,a,1237,q,567003.asp#7
    Last edited by Dreamer; 03-28-2011 at 01:14 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    DC buses are policed by DC Transit Police.

    The streets of DC, however, are policed by DC Metropolitan Police.

    The 1600 block is where the White House is, and falls under the the Secret Service.

    The area between the 1600 block and the 900 block goes near several areas designated as US Parkland, and therefore is under jursdiction of the US Park Police.

    The FBI Headquarters is on the 900 Block of Penn. Ave.

    Any "terrorist-related" event occurring on transit in the US may fall under TSA and DHS jurisdiction.

    If the firearm is owned by someone who is not a DC resident, BATFE may have jurisdiction.

    Ultimately, in DC, it depends on which LEA responds first, and which LEA decided it WANTS jurisdiction. Usually, events like this get handed to DCMP or DCTP, unless they actually occur on Federal property, or directly involve a Federal Official.

    In other words, jurisdictional authority in DC is a crazy-quilt patchwork of "not my responsibility"... Unless it's a high-profile case that an agency can get political traction from...

    So pretty much ANY LEA you could name in DC would be the right answer... Or the wrong one...


    And, BTW, carrying a concealed firearm in DC without a license is a FELONY, and carries penalties of up to 5 years in prison and up to $10,000 in fines, and that would most likely be ON TOP OF the charge of possessing an unregistered firearm, which is a misdemeanor carrying up to a 1 year/$1000 penalty. And remember that in DC, your ammo must also be registered, and EVERY round that is not legally possessed is a FELONY...

    http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com...weapon-charges

    http://mpdc.dc.gov/mpdc/cwp/view,a,1237,q,567003.asp#7
    I'll just avoid going to DC all together!

    And as far who claims jurisdiction, just let all of the prosecuting attorney's from each jurisdiction play rock, paper, scissors with each other, tournament style, and whoever wins, gets control. It's easier to answer "Which court will handle the case?" compared to "Which law enforcement agency will respond?" because whichever LEA responds, is which court will handle the case. If ANY of he Federal agencies handle it, then it will be handled in a Federal Court, regardless of which agency responded.

    Same goes for either of the D.C. Police Departments (D.C. Metropolitan and D.C. Transit)

    There is definitely no simple answer!
    Last edited by Aaron1124; 03-28-2011 at 08:56 PM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    I'll just avoid going to DC all together!

    And as far who claims jurisdiction, just let all of the prosecuting attorney's from each jurisdiction play rock, paper, scissors with each other, tournament style, and whoever wins, gets control.

    Congress should pass a law that stipulates that DC LEAs have to determine jurisdiction in all 1A-, 2A- and 4A-related cases by Rochambeau, South Park style...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 04-03-2011 at 01:53 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    I offer my sincere apology to Aaron1124.

    I didn't bother to look at his join date or post count, before assuming his "I am a CJ major" post was just another drive-by, like the many like it we've seen before.

    Sorry, Anthony. I do recognize you as a regular contributing member of OCDO, I just mistook you for someone else.

  11. #11
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    I offer my sincere apology to Aaron1124.

    I didn't bother to look at his join date or post count, before assuming his "I am a CJ major" post was just another drive-by, like the many like it we've seen before.

    Sorry, Anthony. I do recognize you as a regular contributing member of OCDO, I just mistook you for someone else.
    Do I read correctly, we have an apology for not associating the number of posts or a join date?
    Is this the new OCDO? Or insulting to OCDO? Established or potential involvement and poster’s judged by a join date, or number of posts. A concept that one’s own contributions and join date somehow instill greater knowledge, command respect, and secure the rights of superiority over another forum member?
    I’m sure it’s not the case, but I’m sure it’s not the first time judging by posts and join date has been mentioned. Is there an unwritten rule of short I’m clueless too?

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    Regular Member stuckinchico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    I offer my sincere apology to Aaron1124.

    I didn't bother to look at his join date or post count, before assuming his "I am a CJ major" post was just another drive-by, like the many like it we've seen before.

    Sorry, Anthony. I do recognize you as a regular contributing member of OCDO, I just mistook you for someone else.
    Something wrong With CJ majors ???? Im a junior already with my AS in administration of Justice (or lack of justice )

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    Quote Originally Posted by stuckinchico View Post
    Something wrong With CJ majors ???? Im a junior already with my AS in administration of Justice (or lack of justice )
    CJ is vo-tech for cops. 10-15 years ago it was considered a valid degree. These days, those hiring for LE positions look much more favorably on those with a well-rounded education, not those who went to school to get a government job.

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuckinchico View Post
    Something wrong With CJ majors ???? Im a junior already with my AS in administration of Justice (or lack of justice )
    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    CJ is vo-tech for cops. 10-15 years ago it was considered a valid degree. These days, those hiring for LE positions look much more favorably on those with a well-rounded education, not those who went to school to get a government job.
    stuckinchico, a college degree in CJ degree is very much a valid degree for entering the field. But I'm sure you saw past Bull Hockey negativity over degree choice. Like other fears discussed on the forum there is no doubt those having policphbioa also exist on the forum.
    Last edited by jbone; 04-04-2011 at 05:45 PM.

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    Whatever happened to wanting to study CJ to simply learn more about the field, before getting directly involved in it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    stuckinchico, a college degree in CJ degree is very much a valid degree for entering the field. But I'm sure you saw past Bull Hockey negativity over degree choice. Like other fears discussed on the forum there is no doubt those having policphbioa also exist on the forum.
    You should have asked what I do for a living instead of dismissing my opinion without any discussion.

    Just FWIW, my degree is in journalism, with minors in military science and German. Both my ROTC advisors and my current employer stressed that the ability to communicate is far more important than job-specific skills, because the employer is responsible for teaching those skills through their academy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    Whatever happened to wanting to study CJ to simply learn more about the field, before getting directly involved in it?
    There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Knowledge is good, and sometimes you end up learning that what you thought you wanted at 18, is not really what you want after all.

    Pete Eyre, an open carry advocate whose videos have been discussed at length here on OCDO (a few years back, mostly in the Virginia forum), majored in criminal justice both as an undergrad and in grad school, before he became convinced that the current system of police work is morally wrong.

    You might know him from the Motorhome Diaries, or from Dave Ridley videos.

  18. #18
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    QUOTE=KBCraig;1502154]You should have asked what I do for a living instead of dismissing my opinion without any discussion.

    Just FWIW, my degree is in journalism, with minors in military science and German. Both my ROTC advisors and my current employer stressed that the ability to communicate is far more important than job-specific skills, because the employer is responsible for teaching those skills through their academy.[/QUOTE]

    Right! I have a better solution, just put all the cards on the table the first time, and tell the whole story the first time to avoid reader confusion, or misrepresentation, journalism you say huh!
    No doubt communication is key to much, but I don't think all employers have academys, prehaps an education is the solid foundation for future learning, understanding, and OJT.
    The minor in military science sounds cool!

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    Ok let's get back on topic... How did a bus get on to the 1600 block of Pensylvania Ave without getting lit up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigC178 View Post
    Ok let's get back on topic... How did a bus get on to the 1600 block of Pensylvania Ave without getting lit up?
    It was full of SEIU and ACRON people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    It was full of SEIU and ACRON people.
    Well than I'd say that the FBI has jurisdiction. I could be wrong but aren't RICO Act violations their turf?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigC178 View Post
    Well than I'd say that the FBI has jurisdiction. I could be wrong but aren't RICO Act violations their turf?
    Pre Holder days prehaps

  23. #23
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigC178 View Post
    Well than I'd say that the FBI has jurisdiction. I could be wrong but aren't RICO Act violations their turf?

    ROTFLMAO...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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