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Thread: Philadelphias' Violating Preemption!

  1. #1
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    Philadelphias' Violating Preemption!

    The City of Philadelphia is Violating Preemption in that They are Requireing License to Carry Firearm Applicants to Provide at least Two Referals, least such Applicants' Application not be Considered.

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    And you just learned this?

    Philadelphia's violation of state law go beyond just requiring the submission of references (with no statutory authority to do so).

    They also require fingerprints (no statutory authority), a copy of your military discharge papers (no statutory authority) and an interview (possibly legal).

    Additionally, if they don't issue the license, they keep all the money submitted (also in violation of state law).

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    i don;t understand why no Philly resident has not stepped up tot eh plate, applied, refused allt eh extra illegal demands, and appealed any denial to the local ct of common please!

    A slam dunk case would put the city in it's place.

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    It's less expensive to apply than to fight it. You'd first have to file the case in the city's Licensing Bureau, or whatever it's called, then get a transcript of that case (where you're virtually guaranteed to lose), and take the expensive transcript to the county Court of Common Pleas. Will those Philadelphia judges find a way to weasel out of complying with state law? Possibly. Then it's off to the Court of Appeals, where you'll win, but will be broke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    The City of Philadelphia is Violating Preemption in that They are Requireing License to Carry Firearm Applicants to Provide at least Two Referals, least such Applicants' Application not be Considered.

    The necessity to have (2) references is not a Philly requirement, it is a state requirement. The PA State Police was given the authority to dictate the form, which the PSP placed the requirement via the power to investigate character and reputation clause to allow the sheriff to seek such information.

    The (2) reference requirement is on the official PSP prescribed form SP 4-127.

    The fingerprints and military discharge paperwork are completely in violation, but the requirement of providing (2) references isn't in violation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    The necessity to have (2) references is not a Philly requirement, it is a state requirement. The PA State Police was given the authority to dictate the form, which the PSP placed the requirement via the power to investigate character and reputation clause to allow the sheriff to seek such information.

    The (2) reference requirement is on the official PSP prescribed form SP 4-127.
    The requirement for references is not, in and of itself, a violation, but Philadelphia's expansion of the requirement is.

    18 Pa.C.S. 6109 states that the application form will consist of one page. The SP 4-127 application form asks for two references (may not be family members), and asks for their name, address and telephone number - nothing more.

    Philadelphia requires two separate reference information forms (one for each reference), thus exceeding the one-page limit, asking for the reference's name, address, telephone numbers (home, work, cellular), driver's license number and date of birth. It further requires the reference to answer a number of questions, and to sign and date the document. The applicant is required to obtain this information. essentially conducting an investigation for Philadelphia. State law says:
    (d) Sheriff to conduct investigation.--The sheriff to whom the application is made shall:
    (1) investigate the applicant's record of criminal conviction;
    (2) investigate whether or not the applicant is under indictment for or has ever been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment exceeding one year;
    (3) investigate whether the applicant's character and reputation are such that the applicant will not be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety;
    (4) investigate whether the applicant would be precluded from receiving a license under subsection (e)(1) or section 6105(h) (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms); and
    (5) conduct a criminal background, juvenile delinquency and mental health check following the procedures set forth in section 6111 (relating to sale or transfer of firearms), receive a unique approval number for that inquiry and record the date and number on the application.
    The reference forms, and completion thereof, is not legally the responsibility of the applicant.

    Study 18 Pa.C.S. 6109 (http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/...6109/licenses/) and compare it with Philadelphia's application requirements (http://www.phillypolice.com/assets/d...pplication.pdf).

    You will also note they are using an out-of-date application form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Statkowski View Post
    The requirement for references is not, in and of itself, a violation, but Philadelphia's expansion of the requirement is.

    18 Pa.C.S. 6109 states that the application form will consist of one page. The SP 4-127 application form asks for two references (may not be family members), and asks for their name, address and telephone number - nothing more.

    Philadelphia requires two separate reference information forms (one for each reference), thus exceeding the one-page limit, asking for the reference's name, address, telephone numbers (home, work, cellular), driver's license number and date of birth. It further requires the reference to answer a number of questions, and to sign and date the document. The applicant is required to obtain this information. essentially conducting an investigation for Philadelphia. State law says:

    The reference forms, and completion thereof, is not legally the responsibility of the applicant.

    Study 18 Pa.C.S. 6109 (http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/...6109/licenses/) and compare it with Philadelphia's application requirements (http://www.phillypolice.com/assets/d...pplication.pdf).

    You will also note they are using an out-of-date application form.
    What would be the difference in contacting the reference and asking them of the same info or questions? ..Which would be within the confines of the law. Whether it be on paper or via personal conversation, it really doesn't matter. For counties that actually contact references the paper form is probably the least invasive form than to deal with a phone conversation.

    The references fills out the secondary forms, not the applicant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    The references fills out the secondary forms, not the applicant.
    The issue is that the applicant cannot be denied a LTCF if his references refuse to talk to the Sheriff or police department's employees.

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    The issue is that it isn't the applicant's job to do PPD's job.

    Applicant supplies name, address and telephone number.

    If Philadelphia wants more, Philadelphia can get more - on its own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    What would be the difference in contacting the reference and asking them of the same info or questions? ..Which would be within the confines of the law. Whether it be on paper or via personal conversation, it really doesn't matter. For counties that actually contact references the paper form is probably the least invasive form than to deal with a phone conversation.

    The references fills out the secondary forms, not the applicant.
    See the last question on the questionnaire? PA 18 6111(i) says applying is confidential and if a sheriff/chief does speak with a reference they should not say WHY they are asking the questions.

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