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OUR RIGHT TO TRAVEL---Defined Legal style

since9

Campaign Veteran
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Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
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Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
What amuses me the most is that folks still think the Constitution was a document enabling individual freedom when its primary purpose from the onset was to put a gun in the hands of the national state and make all the subsidiary states merely political subdivisions. It is not, never has been and never will be an instrument to provide liberty and freedom to individuals.

What amuses me most is why some folks believe this when the several thousand supporting documents and letters written by our Founding Fathers state the exact opposite.

Why do you think the Bill of Rights comprises the lion's share of the case load and not the body of the Constitution in protecting citizens from a predatory government?

Because most court cases worth fighting involve overstepping of authority on the part of local, state, and federal governments.
 
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Motofixxer

Regular Member
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May 14, 2010
Messages
965
Location
Somewhere over the Rainbow
Here is a good long explanation that describes the fraud that has been perpetrated on us. Do your own research and come to your own conclusions. If you begin to open your eyes you will begin to comprehend the magnitude. You need to educate yourself first before anything can change.

[video=youtube;uWLfmmNmoT8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWLfmmNmoT8&list=HL1375924731[/video]
 
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davidmcbeth

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Jan 14, 2012
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earth's crust
I am looking out for the poor schlub who is going to read your post, think that there is some there there, try to assert the right to travel by defying traffic laws (which it seems you won't), and pay a heavy price.

A heavy price? In my state, ya get caught and ya pay about a $50 fine. That's it. Drive again the next day...no problemo.
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
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nj
Yes, traveling is a right not a privilege. Also I would argue that the state mandating a citizen to acquire a license for any right is unconstitutional.
Citizens should have a right to either enter into a contract with the State or to not enter into a contract with the State. However the State mandating every citizen to acquire a drivers license simply to travel about on his/her daily routine via automobile is simply strong arm work.
THE DMV employes many of people and their revenue is in the high billions of dollars.. Hence they have been brain washing people for years regarding a drivers license scheme. Most citizens simply buy into the system and then go about their business.. Most don't know nor do they care about their rights.

In my opinion state's cannot force a citizen to enter into a contract. Purchasing a license to drive or paying to register a vehicle, is in fact forming a contract between state and citizen. I as a citizen do not have any interest in entering into a contract with the State. ( Nothing good can come of it)

I have not had a DL for over 20 years... I drive about 15k miles a year, and never get ticketed.. May be I'm lucky.

Know the law, know you're rights. Do not pay for a right to travel, you already have that right.

My .02

CCJ
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
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Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
Yes, traveling is a right not a privilege. Also I would argue that the state mandating a citizen to acquire a license for any right is unconstitutional.
Citizens should have a right to either enter into a contract with the State or to not enter into a contract with the State. However the State mandating every citizen to acquire a drivers license simply to travel about on his/her daily routine via automobile is simply strong arm work.
THE DMV employes many of people and their revenue is in the high billions of dollars.. Hence they have been brain washing people for years regarding a drivers license scheme. Most citizens simply buy into the system and then go about their business.. Most don't know nor do they care about their rights.

In my opinion state's cannot force a citizen to enter into a contract. Purchasing a license to drive or paying to register a vehicle, is in fact forming a contract between state and citizen. I as a citizen do not have any interest in entering into a contract with the State. ( Nothing good can come of it)

I have not had a DL for over 20 years... I drive about 15k miles a year, and never get ticketed.. May be I'm lucky.

Know the law, know you're rights. Do not pay for a right to travel, you already have that right.

My .02

CCJ

The state will use deadly force to force citizens to acquire a license and enter into a blind, non-disclosure contract with the state, and to extort money and property.

I know that, constitutionally, there can be no license required.
 

Lawful Aim

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
131
Location
USA
A license is commercial...that is why its a privilege.
The application for a drivers license is a contract with the State Corporation.


That is exactly correct! Except for te part about it being a "contract" when it is actually only an "agreement" that may be changed, rescinded, etc.

Fantastic posts, Butch! I have been enjoying your contributions to this thread.

BTW- These STATE corporations are sub-corps of the US corp which is one aspect in which they sneak around the 10th amendment issue.

I posted the info as a resource to get people thinking and researching so they can learn for themselves how to handle their affairs.

Thank You, Motofixxer for posting this thread and all of the relevant info. This all quite valuable to assist with opening the eyes of those who are not aware of the bigger picture especially on this subject.

Sorry, but I don't believe that for a second. The post clearly is advocating the position that the State has no authority to regulate driving on the public highways.[\quote]

They only have presumed authority based on those who have signed DL, registration and Certificate of Title documents.

Once again, you go ahead and believe that. Try to drive on the public highways in ways that violate the law. Use your argument in court and see how far it gets you.[\quote]

There is no need to argue in court. After an officer issues a Notice To Appear one may just send it to the court marked "Refused For Cause" and do the same for any other NOTICE received. Commercial Law rules apply to which they may be applied as a remedy. Been applying this myself and have witnessed others applying the same for eight years.

Oh, and BTW, it is even worse if you are suggesting that others act on the information if you are not willing to take the risk yourself. [\quote]

He never mentioned that he isn't/hasn't been willing to "take the risk" himself. Regardless of that it is an excellent topic of discussion.

Folks: People have been arguing that the State has no authority to regulate driving on the highways. Some poor souls have even tried to argue this in court. Have you noticed that the laws are still there? At best, such arguments have drawn chortles from the judge as he banged down the gavel on the defendant.[\quote]

True as they brought the wrong arguments and on a deeper level just the fact that they "argued" at all added to their demise. These people granted the defacto STATE permission to regulate them and then attempted to argue that the authority didn't exist. [facepalm]

... ...posting such a contention without the full willingness to test it himself, but running the risk that some poor goober will read the post, try it, and suffer the consequences, is just a tad irresponsible.

It was eight years ago that I happened upon a similar discussion as this and went out and tried it.
Did I learn my lesson? Yes! I learned many valuable lessons after continuing to "drive without a license" so now that I have extensive experience on the subject and can share with other what to do and what not to do regarding this topic.
For me it was PRICELESS that someone posted on this subject regardless of whether they had applied it themselves or not. I say promoting freedom in this fashion is EXTREMELY responsible. Thank You to all who do so!

Motofixxer, I see you're interested in law. Law as it pertains to "driving". There's a Yahoo discussion group that covers this topic often. It's called law-discuss. I suggest you check it out. The owner and several of the members are attorneys.[\quote]

There are many discussion groups on this topic, choosing one with members who are attorneys will not get you answers that promote the subject. If there is an attorney who does, please share whom that is as that would be news to me.

Be careful with guys such as this in the video. When he instructs you not to plea, it shows that he's mistaken because most(all?) states have a statute that allows a judge to enter a plea for you if you don't. There are more issues with each of his declarations such as, each state has their own statutes for requirements to initiate prosecution. It's best to check out fellows like this before relying on their "advice".

Yes, be careful! And also know that it isn't statute that allows a judge to enter a plea for you but only the court rules. The court rules are invoked by consent in the way one stands up and answers to judge when called. If one does not intend to enter a plea then it would be quite beneficial to answer, "I am here on that matter. (By special appearance)" In addition it would be beneficial to learn about commercial/administrative remedies as these ARE administrative courts operating under administrative rules. It is also very beneficial to check out, Non Statutory Abatement or Common Law Abatement.

John Quade (Some of you will recognize this actor) speaks at a seminar on abatements;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76uacTrHj4c
The David Sidney Rideout vids that appear on the right-hand side of the page are also quite informative.

Transcript from when Randy Lee applied an abatement to an IRS matter and abatement example;
http://www.mind-trek.com/articles/t16g.htm

Abatement handbook (101 pages) Authored in part by John Quade and Randy Lee
http://usa-the-republic.com/abatements/Plea In Abatement.pdf

Don Quixote's 88 page abatement book;
http://freedom-school.com/common-law-abatement.pdf
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
I keep seeing posts that declare a license is a contract. This is incorrect. Your state's civil code contains the definition of contract.

George jetson

I would argue that when money is exchanged for a service then a Contract has been created.

Regards

CCJ
 

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
George jetson

I would argue that when money is exchanged for a service then a Contract has been created.

Regards

CCJ

Yes, I understand your point. However, the states power to contract is decidedly seperate and distinct from its power to regulate and issue licenses. It's important to understand the difference, particularly if one is about to enter a courtroom.
 

countryclubjoe

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Messages
2,505
Location
nj
Yes, I understand your point. However, the states power to contract is decidedly seperate and distinct from its power to regulate and issue licenses. It's important to understand the difference, particularly if one is about to enter a courtroom.

Thank you for you're reply. Again I would argue that the State does not have the authority to regulate an individual's right to travel and requiring a license and charging fee's and threatening a citizen with incarceration for non compliance with said license is in my opinion unconstitutional.
However the State and its law makers, the judges, the attorney's, will not acknowledge such a theory, and why will they not acknowledge this theory? Obviously for Money and Revenue. If all the Joe citizen's refused to pay fee's and licensing cost and did not let the threat of incarceration by the State, if all the Joe Citizens were not so institutionalized, all these taxing agency's and licensing agency's would be out of business.
The judges, the lawyers, the DMV, IRS, all those folks would in fact have to go out and get a real job.
Clearly there are circumstances where the State can exercise their authority to regulate and require a drivers license, those circumstances would be if a citizen is engaging in commerce or operating a vehicle for commercial purposes. (Another made up law, that I don't agree with) However that's the cost of engaging in commerce and doing commercial business.

Regarding going to court for a non driver's license violation, I assume that is what you were referencing in you're last sentence.

I can only speak for myself, I never give the kangaroo traffic courts any jurisdiction over me. I file a written motion to dismiss, along with a trial by jury request, along with a change of venue, in my motion brief I cite case law and constitutional law to support my arguments and also the lack of jurisdiction on the part of the kangaroo traffic court. Keep in mind that traffic courts are courts of revenue, they do not want to spend time litigating an issue, they want quick pleads and plead bargaining. They do not want a citizen that knows his/her rights to open the eyes of other less constitutional minded citizens. My batting average is 1000 with no court cost or fee's applied. Other folks results may vary.

I am not advocating for folks to discontinue paying for their right to travel, nor am I advocating for folks to go out and break any traffic laws.
Folks should obey the laws of the road while traveling and drive in a safe responsible matter. I am simply arguing that a driver's license is not needed to travel about by any mode thereof, travel for recreational travel or simply to get from point A to point B in the exercise of an individuals right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness does not require a state sanctioned license.

My .02

According to Black's Law- Contract

" An agreement between two or more parties creating obligations that are enforceable or otherwise recognized at law"

Based on Black's definition, I would argue that the purchase of a license of any kind, drivers, marriage, fishing etc is indeed a contract. However, I am not sure what the State's obligation is regarding said contract. It would appear they simply extract the fruits of you're labor via you're hard earned cash for a term they call " A Privilege". Personally, I will stick to my rights, they can keep their privileges.

georg jetson, I enjoy opining with you on the subject, please drive safe and carry safe.

Best regards

CCJ
 

georg jetson

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Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
Thank you for you're reply. Again I would argue that the State does not have the authority to regulate an individual's right to travel and requiring a license and charging fee's and threatening a citizen with incarceration for non compliance with said license is in my opinion unconstitutional.

I haven't made any attempt to argue this point with you. I simply state that a license is not a contract.

However the State and its law makers, the judges, the attorney's, will not acknowledge such a theory, and why will they not acknowledge this theory? Obviously for Money and Revenue. If all the Joe citizen's refused to pay fee's and licensing cost and did not let the threat of incarceration by the State, if all the Joe Citizens were not so institutionalized, all these taxing agency's and licensing agency's would be out of business.
The judges, the lawyers, the DMV, IRS, all those folks would in fact have to go out and get a real job.
Clearly there are circumstances where the State can exercise their authority to regulate and require a drivers license, those circumstances would be if a citizen is engaging in commerce or operating a vehicle for commercial purposes. (Another made up law, that I don't agree with) However that's the cost of engaging in commerce and doing commercial business.

Regarding going to court for a non driver's license violation, I assume that is what you were referencing in you're last sentence.

I can only speak for myself, I never give the kangaroo traffic courts any jurisdiction over me. I file a written motion to dismiss, along with a trial by jury request, along with a change of venue, in my motion brief I cite case law and constitutional law to support my arguments and also the lack of jurisdiction on the part of the kangaroo traffic court. Keep in mind that traffic courts are courts of revenue, they do not want to spend time litigating an issue, they want quick pleads and plead bargaining. They do not want a citizen that knows his/her rights to open the eyes of other less constitutional minded citizens. My batting average is 1000 with no court cost or fee's applied. Other folks results may vary.

I am not advocating for folks to discontinue paying for their right to travel, nor am I advocating for folks to go out and break any traffic laws.
Folks should obey the laws of the road while traveling and drive in a safe responsible matter. I am simply arguing that a driver's license is not needed to travel about by any mode thereof, travel for recreational travel or simply to get from point A to point B in the exercise of an individuals right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness does not require a state sanctioned license.

My .02

According to Black's Law- Contract

" An agreement between two or more parties creating obligations that are enforceable or otherwise recognized at law"

Based on Black's definition, I would argue that the purchase of a license of any kind, drivers, marriage, fishing etc is indeed a contract. However, I am not sure what the State's obligation is regarding said contract. It would appear they simply extract the fruits of you're labor via you're hard earned cash for a term they call " A Privilege". Personally, I will stick to my rights, they can keep their privileges.

georg jetson, I enjoy opining with you on the subject, please drive safe and carry safe.

Best regards

CCJ

Law dictionaries' definitions are irrelevant here. A license is a license and a contract is a contract by statute. Find the appropriate statutes in your state.
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
I haven't made any attempt to argue this point with you. I simply state that a license is not a contract.



Law dictionaries' definitions are irrelevant here. A license is a license and a contract is a contract by statute. Find the appropriate statutes in your state.

A license is permission/a wavier to do that which is illegal.
 

Primus

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
3,939
Location
United States
Commonwealth v. Robert P. Lopes

http://law.justia.com/cases/massachusetts/court-of-appeals/2014/12-p-1661.html

Motor Vehicle, Operating under the influence, License to operate. License. Registrar of Motor Vehicles, Revocation of license to operate. Constitutional Law, Confrontation of witnesses. Practice, Criminal, Confrontation of witnesses, Stipulation, Prior conviction, Instructions to jury. Evidence, Prior conviction.


Should have used some of these Defenses may have gotten off....
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
I haven't made any attempt to argue this point with you. I simply state that a license is not a contract.



Law dictionaries' definitions are irrelevant here. A license is a license and a contract is a contract by statute. Find the appropriate statutes in your

state.

georg jetson

The license is the finished product that is produced after the citizen exchanges documents and currency with the state, the exchange of the documents and the currency creates the contract between citizen and state hence they take you're picture and hand you a license which now means you contracted with the state and paid a fee to acquire a driving privilege. That privilege will last until you're current license expires, usually 4 years in most states or until such time as you violate some rules of the road at which time thereof you're so called driving privilege could be revoke by the state.

Again, I personally, do not do business with any G agency's. But hey, if doing business with G agency's makes people feel safe or comfortable then that is their right.

My .02

CCJ
 
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