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Thread: we still need to fight for constitution carry....

  1. #1
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    we still need to fight for constitution carry....

    even though the bill that would have allowed campus carry failed..... we still have to continue the fight for "constitution carry"... it should be coming up soon for debate....

  2. #2
    Regular Member ColeMD17's Avatar
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    I'm not totally sure how I feel about this one, to be honest...

    I definitely support the idea that SOME method of carry should always be legal without the government's say-so.

    I don't like the idea of guys carrying a gun who doesn't know what they're doing.

    When you start open carrying, nobody does it without educating themselves, or else the public will give them a hell of a crash course when they go out!

    any ignorant fool can tuck a gun in his pants and cover it up though :-/ with no incentive to become anything but ignorant. but if you need a license, with some modest requirements to get that license, then you've got a lot of people going out and taking classes and stuff and learning some of those valuable things that all gun carriers better know.

    If we've got wannabe's out there with concealed weapons that aren't educated on how to be responsible with it, then we may potentially end up with the kind of problems that give the gun control bastards more ammo to take away our rights with :-/

    That's just my $2.25 (inflation's a bitch) what do you guys think?
    "Molon Labe."

    "People sleep peacably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColeMD17 View Post
    I don't like the idea of guys carrying a gun who doesn't know what they're doing.

    When you start open carrying, nobody does it without educating themselves, or else the public will give them a hell of a crash course when they go out!

    any ignorant fool can tuck a gun in his pants and cover it up though :-/ with no incentive to become anything but ignorant. but if you need a license, with some modest requirements to get that license, then you've got a lot of people going out and taking classes and stuff and learning some of those valuable things that all gun carriers better know.

    If we've got wannabe's out there with concealed weapons that aren't educated on how to be responsible with it, then we may potentially end up with the kind of problems that give the gun control bastards more ammo to take away our rights with :-/

    That's just my $2.25 (inflation's a bitch) what do you guys think?
    I think that A: the kind of people who represent a problem are unlikely to care about the law (plenty of not-real-criminals illegally concealed carry) and B: the law doesn't do squat to address the issue (hunter's safety course for a concealed handgun? Please.) in the first place, and yet regardless there isn't actually a problem on anything resembling a notable scale.

    Notice I didn't even bother bringing up that little thing about rights... Minor details I know.
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-28-2011 at 05:01 AM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member ColeMD17's Avatar
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    I don't know... I know plenty of people who went out and took a concealed carry class just to get their permit to CCW... and the way I see it, when it comes to guns, a little extra knowledge is never a bad thing.

    The kind of "problems" I'm talking about are from people who carry a gun for the wrong reason. like to impress girls or something. these people I wouldn't say are malicious, just dumb. I wouldn't necessarily say they don't care about the law. see, I could see them taking their gun out and showing it off, or unable to stop from fidgeting and patting it, or using it when not appropriate, all because they were only told that it's legal to conceal your gun without a permit, and not told that there's a right way to go about doing it, and a way that makes you a complete dumbass who will accidentally shoot somebody.

    But see, the thing about rights is what makes me want to support it... (it's also why I think that SOME method of carry should always be legal without government's say-so) I'm definitely conflicted with this one lol but I thought I should play devil's advocate i guess, since we all know what the supporting arguments are.
    Last edited by ColeMD17; 03-28-2011 at 05:13 AM.
    "Molon Labe."

    "People sleep peacably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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    Regular Member ColeMD17's Avatar
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    basically, lol, i guess I'm nervous about the posers. I kinda like that you've gotta go through some sort of "initiation" that does more to guarantee that you really are gonna take this as seriously as the rest of us.

    With Open Carry... you're gonna have to arm yourself with knowledge to feed back to the less-than-supporting members of the public, and you'll have to accept the fact that you're an ambassador for gun owners, and it's your responsibility to be a good example.

    With Concealed Carry... well, the public generally isn't gonna know you have it, but something has to provide you with the knowledge that qualifies you to be effective at self-governing on what is acceptable as a gun carrier and what is not. requiring a class isn't bad. I mean, we all have to take a test to get our drivers' license, right? and to pass that test, we usually have to go through drivers' ed.

    That's what I think. Carrying a gun is a huge responsibility, and we've gotta make sure you can handle that responsibility. of course, it should be reasonably easy and cheap to do so, and just as easy as getting a drivers' license.
    Last edited by ColeMD17; 03-28-2011 at 05:29 AM.
    "Molon Labe."

    "People sleep peacably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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    A constitutional right is a constitutional right.

    Criminals carry regardless of law or education on the subject. I don't know anyone who carries without any basic fundamentals.

    I just took a single CCW class provided by the sheriff, but I'm no more dangerous than the average gun owner. I personally take time to read the laws to keep myself out of jail.

    Why do I do this? Because I'm a law-abiding responsible citizen.

    Whether constitutional carry or permit carry, I'm still going to do this regardless because I never want to be in jail.

    Every single time you let the government give you a permit/license to exercise your right, you're giving up more and more of your rights. That's exactly what the anti-gun people want and have been doing for decades. When you accept a "license" as a reasonable way to exercise a right, you've shown how you've allowed the tactic to work.

    I can't wait til there's a free speech/free expression license out there that requires a class. There's a hell of a lot more people who say and do stupid crap out there than the law-abiding gun owners.

    You learn to respect and accept that your fellow law-abiding citizens are going to do their due diligence. If they don't, they'll soon be regretting that decision, in jail, or will no longer be apart of this world when they potentially do the wrong thing to the wrong person.
    Last edited by Zhukov; 03-28-2011 at 05:53 AM.

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    Regular Member ColeMD17's Avatar
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    hmm... I like that makes a lot of sense. I just hope it's not too optimistic. I think our main difference here is that I believe in a class of people who are dumb, but not really criminals. see, you and I, and most of the members of OCDO follow laws AND common sense. dumb people who do follow the law are out there, they just dont follow common sense. but then I guess I'm arguing that it should be against the law to not have common sense... i dont know... I'm tired as hell right now and my mind isnt too sharp. we'll pick up on this later but you're definitely building my confidence in permitless CC, which is what I was hoping for.
    "Molon Labe."

    "People sleep peacably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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    Regular Member eddallen1958's Avatar
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    A safety course might not be a bad requirement. But at the very least, anyone that wants to carry should at least take that weapon out, Shoot it, Learn it, Understand it and see what kind of damage it can do. Some kind of knowledge is needed before carrying a deadly weapon.

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    Regular Member ColeMD17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddallen1958 View Post
    A safety course might not be a bad requirement. But at the very least, anyone that wants to carry should at least take that weapon out, Shoot it, Learn it, Understand it and see what kind of damage it can do. Some kind of knowledge is needed before carrying a deadly weapon.
    agreed. A "shall issue" basis with a requirement that you show that you're gonna be competent is the way to go!

    And no 21 year old age limit, damn it! If an 18 year old can show that he's competent, then grant the American citizen his freakin' rights!!
    "Molon Labe."

    "People sleep peacably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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    Regular Member cdub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColeMD17 View Post
    agreed. A "shall issue" basis with a requirement that you show that you're gonna be competent is the way to go!

    And no 21 year old age limit, damn it! If an 18 year old can show that he's competent, then grant the American citizen his freakin' rights!!
    I know cole i am with you on this one for under 21

    I think we need to pass it with 21+ for now then in a year or 2 take that away if it has not allready been taken away with the courts we dont want to push 2 fast or it will be a fail.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColeMD17 View Post
    I don't know... I know plenty of people who went out and took a concealed carry class just to get their permit to CCW... and the way I see it, when it comes to guns, a little extra knowledge is never a bad thing.
    I understand that, and I don't disagree (although I don't reach the conclusion that this supports mandatory training.

    What I'm saying is, someone who cares enough to take a proper course doesn't need the law to tell them to do so. One way or another, they'll pick up what a course teaches them. All that info is available on the internet.

    On the other hand, the "idiots" and the "poseurs" are legally allowed to take a hunter's safety course (in most states), which teaches essentially nothing relevant to carrying concealed (except the 4 rules of firearm safety, which are easily ignored by idiots). I doesn't seem to me a huge stretch to imagine that "idiots" and "poseurs" would actually prefer a hunter's safety course, being that those are the cheapest, the slackest, and the most easily available courses.

    Therefore, my argument goes, while the law encourages the taking of a class for those who are already conscientious, it does nothing to force "idiots" and "poseurs" to acquire the relevant information. It merely pretends to do so. It is a feel-good law.

    However, despite this lack of legal functionality, there isn't a problem with idiots and poseurs. Sure, it happens occasionally, but not at a rate worth worrying about. I fail to see how the law can achieve less-than-zero efficacy, so the situation is highly unlikely to get worse in the absence of a law.

    So, being that the law can be shown to be essentially functionless, what is the point behind its maintenance? Is it so important to have "feel-good" laws on the books, especially when issues of right are implicated?

  12. #12
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Constitutional Carry and mandated training do not go hand in hand. There are plenty of instructors out there who are no qualified to teach. Like this one for instance:



    I'd rather people take voluntary training from family members, friends, etc, etc. People who are willing to train you and not just take your money.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member ColeMD17's Avatar
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    Hmm... you know, if we were anywhere else, id say that because our current system works so well, there's no point in changing it. But you're right, the problem group is pretty small. Idahoans, for the most part, know how to handle their guns already. But damn it, since we've done so well, I'd say we've earned a little extra leeway!
    Last edited by ColeMD17; 03-28-2011 at 06:45 PM.
    "Molon Labe."

    "People sleep peacably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColeMD17 View Post
    But damn it, since we've done so well, I'd say we've earned a little extra leeway!
    That's a fair way to look at at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColeMD17 View Post
    I'm not totally sure how I feel about this one, to be honest...

    I definitely support the idea that SOME method of carry should always be legal without the government's say-so.

    I don't like the idea of guys carrying a gun who doesn't know what they're doing.

    When you start open carrying, nobody does it without educating themselves, or else the public will give them a hell of a crash course when they go out!

    any ignorant fool can tuck a gun in his pants and cover it up though :-/ with no incentive to become anything but ignorant. but if you need a license, with some modest requirements to get that license, then you've got a lot of people going out and taking classes and stuff and learning some of those valuable things that all gun carriers better know.

    If we've got wannabe's out there with concealed weapons that aren't educated on how to be responsible with it, then we may potentially end up with the kind of problems that give the gun control bastards more ammo to take away our rights with :-/

    That's just my $2.25 (inflation's a bitch) what do you guys think?
    WOW...You mean gangbangers are going to run out and get educated,
    so they will know what they are doing with guns.
    I'm glad my Rights are not subject to your interpretation.
    Knowing what my Constitutional Rights are, I get no Licenses or Permits from anyone for anything.
    Life is tough, its tougher when your stupid.

    http://www.itsnotthelaw.com

    Feds: U.C.C. 1-308, State: U.C.C. 1-207, Both: U.C.C. 1-103.6

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    Regular Member ColeMD17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch00 View Post
    WOW...You mean gangbangers are going to run out and get educated,
    so they will know what they are doing with guns.
    I'm glad my Rights are not subject to your interpretation.
    Knowing what my Constitutional Rights are, I get no Licenses or Permits from anyone for anything.
    *sigh* no, not gangbangers, I'm not talking about them. I know as well as the rest of us that they'll just do whatever they want.

    No, I was talking about the non-malicious-but-still-dumb-individual who learns that he can tuck a gun under his jacket and says "No way, brah! that's cool!" and starts doing it just to feel like a badass, without really thinking about the responsibility it demands. Then he's gonna learn that no one else will consider him as badass as he considers himself if he doesn't occasionally show off that he's packing, and so he'll start flashing his gun, or drawing it when it's not appropriate, etc, etc. "nah, it's cool man, I know this other guy that does it, doesn't have a permit or anything!" BAM!! accident....then comes in the whiny-butt media and gun control groups, then we've got new legislation and before we know it, Idaho's a "may-issue" state. I'd really hate that.

    BUT like I said a couple posts ago... Idahoans do seem to know what they're doing. we don't have many of those individuals, and I think we've earned a little extra leeway, and so I am now confidently supporting SB1126
    "Molon Labe."

    "People sleep peacably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

  17. #17
    Regular Member ColeMD17's Avatar
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    That said... WHAT'S THE FREAKIN' HOLDUP!? According to the Idaho Legislation website, they bill hasn't been touched in over a month!
    "Molon Labe."

    "People sleep peacably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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    Regular Member eddallen1958's Avatar
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    This is our government you're talking about. You don't really expect them to work do you? Sad isn't it? Hopefully it will go better then the guns on campus did.

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    Thumbs down They're holding it on purpose.

    It's my understanding that the constitutional carry bill will not even get a committee hearing this year, much less make it out of committee. Even if it does, it likely will not make it before both houses' committees or floors before the session ends. It's an off-year, and legislators, not facing re-election in the fall, don't really care what the people want - they're only listening to the state GOP leaders, who are beholden only to IACI, not constituents. Someone (or someones) at the leadership level don't want constitutional carry, at least this year. Maybe it's because they wanted to focus on the silly unconstitutional legislation that keeps popping up, education "reform," budget-cutting and union-busting as the causes of the year. Maybe they want to hold it for 2012, an election year, to carry as a party platform or election issue to divide the public against Democrats, whom they believe would oppose constitutional carry (probably true for some of them). Who knows.

    Once again, our legislators keep doing what they want, ignoring the people on this and just about every other issue that GOP leadership (IACI) determines is not in the party's best interests.

    And no, I'm not a D - unless by D you mean "disillusioned, disappointed, and disgusted" with Idaho's GOP - the party has left me, and most Idahoans, as if we were all starter wives, in favor of the flashy business and social engineering interests.

    We need to get loud and bombard all legislators - not just our own - with correspondence as to what we want. Don't do it with a phone call. Don't do it with an e-mail. Type or write out letters - it's harder to ignore physical, tangible statements than it is electrons in a handset or on a screen.
    Last edited by DCR; 03-30-2011 at 10:30 PM.

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    I favor the right of every citizen to be able to carry a gun if they choose to do so. Concealed or open, should make no difference.

    Businesses should have the right to restrict carry, concealed or open. Government offices should not have the right to restrict carry without valid cause. That means jails, courtrooms and such secure facilities as truly need to be secured.

    Go back to teaching firearms safety in the schools along with holding children and their parents responsible for their actions or inaction. Instead of teaching Libyan rebels how to fight their government's troops, they should be teaching Americans how to take care of themselves and others in a safe and proficient manner.

    When LE, competent medical authority or the courts have cause to question the individual's mental/physical capacity to carry safely, they should have recourse to a process to have the right revoked when they can demonstrate a danger to the individual and/or the community.

    Felons should have that right revoked if their citizenship has been restricted and the court feels they present a danger to themselves or the community.

    That about sums up my opinion on the subject.

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    Idaho: Campus Carry Legislation Defeated Because Three “Pro-Gun” Legislators Voted “No”

    Last Friday, the Senate State Affairs Committee voted to effectively defeat House Bill 222 by a 3 to 6 vote. This unfortunate outcome happened because three incumbents, who were previously A-rated and endorsed by the NRA Political Victory Fund in 2010, broke their promise on this issue.

    All three Senators -- Brent Hill, John McGee and Chuck Winder -- indicated in their responses to our 2010 candidate questionnaire, that they would support this self-defense legislation. Our ratings and endorsements of them last year were based on their responses to our state candidate questionnaire as well as their previous legislative voting records.

    This important self-defense legislation would have allowed for the lawful carry of a firearm on a college or university campus for self-defense, as long as the individual is not restricted from legally carrying a firearm by any state or federal law. While this bill would also grant authority to a college and university to restrict firearms in undergraduate housing, its opponents argued that law-abiding permit holders cannot be trusted to carry a firearm on campus.

    Below are the names and contact information for these three state Senators. Contact them TODAY and let them know how disappointed you are that they did not stand up for gun owners and the Constitution.

    Senator Brent Hill (R-34)
    BHill@senate.idaho.gov
    (208) 332-1300

    Senator John McGee (R-10)
    JMcGee@senate.idaho.gov
    (208) 332-1304

    Senator Chuck Winder (R-14)
    CWinder@senate.idaho.gov
    (208) 332-1354

  22. #22
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    Thank you for your email regarding gun policy in the state of Idaho. The guns on campus bill, H0222, was heard in Senate State Affairs committee this morning and I listened to thoughtful, informative public testimony on both sides of the issue. There was enough doubt raised about the bill that a motion was made to amend it, but the committee did not think that it would be productive at this point in the session and voted 6-3 against the motion. The bill will not move forward to the Senate floor.

    The bill that would allow for carrying a gun without a permit, S1126, remains in the Senate State Affairs committee and the chairman has not put it on the committee agenda.

    Thanks again for your comments on these important issues.



    Michelle Stennett
    Idaho State Senate, District 25
    Minority Caucus Chair

    P.O. Box 83720
    Boise, ID 83720-0081
    (208) 332-1353
    Fax (208) 334-2116
    mstennett@senate.idaho.gov

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    Thanks for the info. None were my legislators but, hopefully, the NRA will significantly lower their rating due to their self-serving profession of support before the fact. The truth is in the doing not the talking about it

    This aggravates me considerably. I'm still carrying everyday in my business without a single negative word having been said. On the other hand, I've had a dozen or more sincere questions as to why I carry, why a S&W instead of a Glock or Springfield, that sort of thing. Police are in my place all the time for the good food, 5 today, 4 on Thursday evening and probably another half-dozen in the first part of the week. Maybe twice they have asked about what I carry, no concerns over why to date.

    I've had 4-5 customers do the OC discount (15%) in the last 10 days and (I think) 3 who showed their CWL for their discount (10%). They get their discount chat a bit and move on. a couple indicate they are thinking about coming to the meeting on the 11th for some good BBQ and chit-chat.

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    What resturant do you operate ecocks? i noticed another post about your business being featured in the business review but was not able to find the column.
    Love the discounts for OC and CC too... i just might have to come on in when i get back from school this summer

    EDIT: oops never mind i found plenty of references in other threads. See you in wild bills sometime this summer!
    Last edited by silver; 05-10-2011 at 04:07 PM.

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    Sheriffs, Chiefs of Police, and control-freak Mayors and legislators are the problem-

    Sorry, folks, but it's the truth. The Idaho Sheriff's Association, various law-enforcement lobbyists (yes, our taxpayer dollars are going to all of them), Mayors' associations, and...wait for it...our supermajority party Republican legislators...are the problem. They all worked against it and kept it in the committee chairman's drawer until public pressure forced him to release it, but it was doomed to failure anyway because of the lobbying done by the wonderful folks I've mentioned above - it was never going to make it out of the committee because of the lobbying by the people Idaho has been voting for so mindlessly.

    Still think voting Republican is your best option here? Your Republican Sheriffs, Mayors and legislators killed the bill.

    Start questioning candidates now about how they'd vote (if they're legislators), and whether they'd support their Sheriff/Chiefs/LEO/Mayors' organization's solid positions against Constitutional Carry.

    We've got to stop thinking that voting only one party will ensure our firearms rights - the Republicans have been in unbeatable control of this state for over 20 years, talk the talk of being pro-gun, and get great grades from the NRA, yet keep voting against our firearms rights and let their organizations, also populated almost exclusively by Republican members, take policy positions and lobby against our rights.

    Stop the madness, protect your rights. Question them on the subject. Get commitments orally or in writing from them on all aspects of firearm rights. If they refuse (or backslide, as all Republican officeholders have for the last 20 years), stop voting for them. Pretty simple.
    Last edited by DCR; 05-11-2011 at 12:24 PM.

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