we still need to fight for constitution carry....

even though the bill that would have allowed campus carry failed..... we still have to continue the fight for "constitution carry"... it should be coming up soon for debate....

I'm not totally sure how I feel about this one, to be honest...

I definitely support the idea that SOME method of carry should always be legal without the government's say-so.

I don't like the idea of guys carrying a gun who doesn't know what they're doing.

When you start open carrying, nobody does it without educating themselves, or else the public will give them a hell of a crash course when they go out!

any ignorant fool can tuck a gun in his pants and cover it up though :-/ with no incentive to become anything but ignorant. but if you need a license, with some modest requirements to get that license, then you've got a lot of people going out and taking classes and stuff and learning some of those valuable things that all gun carriers better know.

If we've got wannabe's out there with concealed weapons that aren't educated on how to be responsible with it, then we may potentially end up with the kind of problems that give the gun control bastards more ammo to take away our rights with :-/

That's just my $2.25 (inflation's a bitch) what do you guys think?

ColeMD17 said:

I don't like the idea of guys carrying a gun who doesn't know what they're doing.

When you start open carrying, nobody does it without educating themselves, or else the public will give them a hell of a crash course when they go out!

any ignorant fool can tuck a gun in his pants and cover it up though :-/ with no incentive to become anything but ignorant. but if you need a license, with some modest requirements to get that license, then you've got a lot of people going out and taking classes and stuff and learning some of those valuable things that all gun carriers better know.

If we've got wannabe's out there with concealed weapons that aren't educated on how to be responsible with it, then we may potentially end up with the kind of problems that give the gun control bastards more ammo to take away our rights with :-/

That's just my $2.25 (inflation's a bitch) what do you guys think?

Click to expand...

I think that A: the kind of people who represent a problem are unlikely to care about the law (plenty of not-real-criminals illegally concealed carry) and B: the law doesn't do squat to address the issue (hunter's safety course for a concealed handgun? Please.) in the first place, and yet regardless there isn't actually a problem on anything resembling a notable scale.

Notice I didn't even bother bringing up that little thing about rights... Minor details I know.

I don't know... I know plenty of people who went out and took a concealed carry class just to get their permit to CCW... and the way I see it, when it comes to guns, a little extra knowledge is never a bad thing.

The kind of "problems" I'm talking about are from people who carry a gun for the wrong reason. like to impress girls or something. these people I wouldn't say are malicious, just dumb. I wouldn't necessarily say they don't care about the law. see, I could see them taking their gun out and showing it off, or unable to stop from fidgeting and patting it, or using it when not appropriate, all because they were only told that it's legal to conceal your gun without a permit, and not told that there's a right way to go about doing it, and a way that makes you a complete dumbass who will accidentally shoot somebody.

But see, the thing about rights is what makes me want to support it... (it's also why I think that SOME method of carry should always be legal without government's say-so) I'm definitely conflicted with this one lol but I thought I should play devil's advocate i guess, since we all know what the supporting arguments are.

basically, lol, i guess I'm nervous about the posers. I kinda like that you've gotta go through some sort of "initiation" that does more to guarantee that you really are gonna take this as seriously as the rest of us.

With Open Carry... you're gonna have to arm yourself with knowledge to feed back to the less-than-supporting members of the public, and you'll have to accept the fact that you're an ambassador for gun owners, and it's your responsibility to be a good example.

With Concealed Carry... well, the public generally isn't gonna know you have it, but something has to provide you with the knowledge that qualifies you to be effective at self-governing on what is acceptable as a gun carrier and what is not. requiring a class isn't bad. I mean, we all have to take a test to get our drivers' license, right? and to pass that test, we usually have to go through drivers' ed.

That's what I think. Carrying a gun is a huge responsibility, and we've gotta make sure you can handle that responsibility. of course, it should be reasonably easy and cheap to do so, and just as easy as getting a drivers' license.

A constitutional right is a constitutional right.

Criminals carry regardless of law or education on the subject. I don't know anyone who carries without any basic fundamentals.

I just took a single CCW class provided by the sheriff, but I'm no more dangerous than the average gun owner. I personally take time to read the laws to keep myself out of jail.

Why do I do this? Because I'm a law-abiding responsible citizen.

Whether constitutional carry or permit carry, I'm still going to do this regardless because I never want to be in jail.

Every single time you let the government give you a permit/license to exercise your right, you're giving up more and more of your rights. That's exactly what the anti-gun people want and have been doing for decades. When you accept a "license" as a reasonable way to exercise a right, you've shown how you've allowed the tactic to work.

I can't wait til there's a free speech/free expression license out there that requires a class. There's a hell of a lot more people who say and do stupid crap out there than the law-abiding gun owners.

You learn to respect and accept that your fellow law-abiding citizens are going to do their due diligence. If they don't, they'll soon be regretting that decision, in jail, or will no longer be apart of this world when they potentially do the wrong thing to the wrong person.

hmm... I like that makes a lot of sense. I just hope it's not too optimistic. I think our main difference here is that I believe in a class of people who are dumb, but not really criminals. see, you and I, and most of the members of OCDO follow laws AND common sense. dumb people who do follow the law are out there, they just dont follow common sense. but then I guess I'm arguing that it should be against the law to not have common sense... i dont know... I'm tired as hell right now and my mind isnt too sharp. we'll pick up on this later but you're definitely building my confidence in permitless CC, which is what I was hoping for.

A safety course might not be a bad requirement. But at the very least, anyone that wants to carry should at least take that weapon out, Shoot it, Learn it, Understand it and see what kind of damage it can do. Some kind of knowledge is needed before carrying a deadly weapon.

eddallen1958 said:

A safety course might not be a bad requirement. But at the very least, anyone that wants to carry should at least take that weapon out, Shoot it, Learn it, Understand it and see what kind of damage it can do. Some kind of knowledge is needed before carrying a deadly weapon.

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agreed. A "shall issue" basis with a requirement that you show that you're gonna be competent is the way to go!

And no 21 year old age limit, damn it! If an 18 year old can show that he's competent, then grant the American citizen his freakin' rights!!

ColeMD17 said:

agreed. A "shall issue" basis with a requirement that you show that you're gonna be competent is the way to go!

And no 21 year old age limit, damn it! If an 18 year old can show that he's competent, then grant the American citizen his freakin' rights!!

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I know cole i am with you on this one for under 21

I think we need to pass it with 21+ for now then in a year or 2 take that away if it has not allready been taken away with the courts we dont want to push 2 fast or it will be a fail.

ColeMD17 said:

I don't know... I know plenty of people who went out and took a concealed carry class just to get their permit to CCW... and the way I see it, when it comes to guns, a little extra knowledge is never a bad thing.

Click to expand...

I understand that, and I don't disagree (although I don't reach the conclusion that this supports mandatory training.

What I'm saying is, someone who cares enough to take a proper course doesn't need the law to tell them to do so. One way or another, they'll pick up what a course teaches them. All that info is available on the internet.

On the other hand, the "idiots" and the "poseurs" are legally allowed to take a hunter's safety course (in most states), which teaches essentially nothing relevant to carrying concealed (except the 4 rules of firearm safety, which are easily ignored by idiots). I doesn't seem to me a huge stretch to imagine that "idiots" and "poseurs" would actually prefer a hunter's safety course, being that those are the cheapest, the slackest, and the most easily available courses.

Therefore, my argument goes, while the law encourages the taking of a class for those who are already conscientious, it does nothing to force "idiots" and "poseurs" to acquire the relevant information. It merely pretends to do so. It is a feel-good law.

However, despite this lack of legal functionality, there isn't a problem with idiots and poseurs. Sure, it happens occasionally, but not at a rate worth worrying about. I fail to see how the law can achieve less-than-zero efficacy, so the situation is highly unlikely to get worse in the absence of a law.

So, being that the law can be shown to be essentially functionless, what is the point behind its maintenance? Is it so important to have "feel-good" laws on the books, especially when issues of right are implicated?

Constitutional Carry and mandated training do not go hand in hand. There are plenty of instructors out there who are no qualified to teach. Like this one for instance:

[video=youtube;iKJH00zph9U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKJH00zph9U[/video]

I'd rather people take voluntary training from family members, friends, etc, etc. People who are willing to train you and not just take your money.

Hmm... you know, if we were anywhere else, id say that because our current system works so well, there's no point in changing it. But you're right, the problem group is pretty small. Idahoans, for the most part, know how to handle their guns already. But damn it, since we've done so well, I'd say we've earned a little extra leeway!

ColeMD17 said:

But damn it, since we've done so well, I'd say we've earned a little extra leeway!

Click to expand...

That's a fair way to look at at.

ColeMD17 said:

I'm not totally sure how I feel about this one, to be honest...

I definitely support the idea that SOME method of carry should always be legal without the government's say-so.

I don't like the idea of guys carrying a gun who doesn't know what they're doing.

When you start open carrying, nobody does it without educating themselves, or else the public will give them a hell of a crash course when they go out!

any ignorant fool can tuck a gun in his pants and cover it up though :-/ with no incentive to become anything but ignorant. but if you need a license, with some modest requirements to get that license, then you've got a lot of people going out and taking classes and stuff and learning some of those valuable things that all gun carriers better know.

If we've got wannabe's out there with concealed weapons that aren't educated on how to be responsible with it, then we may potentially end up with the kind of problems that give the gun control bastards more ammo to take away our rights with :-/

That's just my $2.25 (inflation's a bitch) what do you guys think?

Click to expand...

WOW...You mean gangbangers are going to run out and get educated,
so they will know what they are doing with guns.
I'm glad my Rights are not subject to your interpretation.
Knowing what my Constitutional Rights are, I get no Licenses or Permits from anyone for anything.

Butch00 said:

WOW...You mean gangbangers are going to run out and get educated,
so they will know what they are doing with guns.
I'm glad my Rights are not subject to your interpretation.
Knowing what my Constitutional Rights are, I get no Licenses or Permits from anyone for anything.

Click to expand...

*sigh* no, not gangbangers, I'm not talking about them. I know as well as the rest of us that they'll just do whatever they want.

No, I was talking about the non-malicious-but-still-dumb-individual who learns that he can tuck a gun under his jacket and says "No way, brah! that's cool!" and starts doing it just to feel like a badass, without really thinking about the responsibility it demands. Then he's gonna learn that no one else will consider him as badass as he considers himself if he doesn't occasionally show off that he's packing, and so he'll start flashing his gun, or drawing it when it's not appropriate, etc, etc. "nah, it's cool man, I know this other guy that does it, doesn't have a permit or anything!" BAM!! accident....then comes in the whiny-butt media and gun control groups, then we've got new legislation and before we know it, Idaho's a "may-issue" state. I'd really hate that.

BUT like I said a couple posts ago... Idahoans do seem to know what they're doing. we don't have many of those individuals, and I think we've earned a little extra leeway, and so I am now confidently supporting SB1126

That said... WHAT'S THE FREAKIN' HOLDUP!? According to the Idaho Legislation website, they bill hasn't been touched in over a month!

This is our government you're talking about. You don't really expect them to work do you? Sad isn't it? Hopefully it will go better then the guns on campus did.

They're holding it on purpose.

It's my understanding that the constitutional carry bill will not even get a committee hearing this year, much less make it out of committee. Even if it does, it likely will not make it before both houses' committees or floors before the session ends. It's an off-year, and legislators, not facing re-election in the fall, don't really care what the people want - they're only listening to the state GOP leaders, who are beholden only to IACI, not constituents. Someone (or someones) at the leadership level don't want constitutional carry, at least this year. Maybe it's because they wanted to focus on the silly unconstitutional legislation that keeps popping up, education "reform," budget-cutting and union-busting as the causes of the year. Maybe they want to hold it for 2012, an election year, to carry as a party platform or election issue to divide the public against Democrats, whom they believe would oppose constitutional carry (probably true for some of them). Who knows.

Once again, our legislators keep doing what they want, ignoring the people on this and just about every other issue that GOP leadership (IACI) determines is not in the party's best interests.

And no, I'm not a D - unless by D you mean "disillusioned, disappointed, and disgusted" with Idaho's GOP - the party has left me, and most Idahoans, as if we were all starter wives, in favor of the flashy business and social engineering interests.

We need to get loud and bombard all legislators - not just our own - with correspondence as to what we want. Don't do it with a phone call. Don't do it with an e-mail. Type or write out letters - it's harder to ignore physical, tangible statements than it is electrons in a handset or on a screen.

I favor the right of every citizen to be able to carry a gun if they choose to do so. Concealed or open, should make no difference.

Businesses should have the right to restrict carry, concealed or open. Government offices should not have the right to restrict carry without valid cause. That means jails, courtrooms and such secure facilities as truly need to be secured.

Go back to teaching firearms safety in the schools along with holding children and their parents responsible for their actions or inaction. Instead of teaching Libyan rebels how to fight their government's troops, they should be teaching Americans how to take care of themselves and others in a safe and proficient manner.

When LE, competent medical authority or the courts have cause to question the individual's mental/physical capacity to carry safely, they should have recourse to a process to have the right revoked when they can demonstrate a danger to the individual and/or the community.

Felons should have that right revoked if their citizenship has been restricted and the court feels they present a danger to themselves or the community.

That about sums up my opinion on the subject.