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Thread: I just took the CCW class with Micheal Bender

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    Regular Member cleveland's Avatar
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    I just took the CCW class with Micheal Bender

    In anticipation of CCW passing in WI, I took Micheal Bender's PPA class yesterday. I took the UT carry class that is combined with the Handgun 1 course.

    The H1 class was essentially a recover of Hunter's Ed. Instead of covering gun and hunting, it covered gun and defense. Instead of what signs to look for in the woods while hunting, it was what signs to look for on the street while commuting, etc... I have been shooting for some time, and most of this was just a recap. There were a few guys in the class that have not, this H1 class was designed for guys like them as an intro to firearms. I think it is perfect for any non-hunter that is looking for an intro into firearms without the hunting info given in Hunter's Ed.

    The UT carry part of the class went over legal issues. When to pull your pistol and when not to pull it. Why avoiding a situation is your best defense. Even if you shoot someone in clear self defense, you'll likely spend $10K defending yourself in court if you win. If it's not clear self defense (even if you feel it was) you'll likely spend more then $10K on defense and the rest of your life in prison. He gave a lot of info on why stopping the threat is the beginning of your fight, not the end.
    The topic that I was most interested in hearing was concealed vs open. He made some good arguments why open carry is much more dangerous then concealed carry. Not bringing attention to yourself or making yourself a target, not obligating you to become involved in a situation, not informing "the bad guy" that you are armed, etc... He did however make it clear that open carrying is your right and protected by the 2nd.

    I think taking this class is a good idea for anyone that is considering carrying, even openly carrying.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    I
    The topic that I was most interested in hearing was concealed vs open. He made some good arguments why open carry is much more dangerous then concealed carry. Not bringing attention to yourself or making yourself a target, not obligating you to become involved in a situation, not informing "the bad guy" that you are armed, etc... He did however make it clear that open carrying is your right and protected by the 2nd.

    I think taking this class is a good idea for anyone that is considering carrying, even openly carrying.
    He's incorrect in those aspects. Criminals do not attack hard targets.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...nder-%28PPA%29

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1454211

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...bbery-kennesaw

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ally-be-unless....

    This forum is much more useful for the person who carries than that class, IMHO.
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    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

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    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    He made some good arguments why open carry is much more dangerous then concealed carry. Not bringing attention to yourself or making yourself a target, not obligating you to become involved in a situation, not informing "the bad guy" that you are armed, etc... He did however make it clear that open carrying is your right and protected by the 2nd.
    Please remember Bender's negative predisposition toward Open Carry. Did he back up his thoughts with statistics? If not, then he is just perpetuating the myths.

    His remark that I remember most is that "open carrying of a firearm is an invite to getting a pipe to the back of the head." I've asked this before here: "Has anybody been piped yet?"
    Last edited by phred; 03-28-2011 at 02:17 PM. Reason: clarify

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    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    I think that the first thread has the most significance.

    I also think that if you look at the total outcome of Mike Bender's handgun courses you will see that it all ends up being a long and drawn out version of the NRA's Personal Protection Outside the Home course. If you want to see the difference in what a handgun course should teach versus what Mr. Bender teaches compare the 2 links below.

    Mike Bender's Master Handgun Course: http://www.ppa-wi.com/?aim=handgun5

    My FREE open carry course. http://cjdefense.com/Open_Carry.html (Go to the home page and click on the Open Carry on the left side of the page) And this doesn't even list the several hours of range time that is all 1 on 1 associated with this course.

    There are more instructors out there that are jumping on the bandwagon as of late, but the truth is that most of them don't agree with OC, or constitutional carry, because it interferes with their pocket books. I think this holds especially true for Mike Bender.

    Also, no matter what bender may think, there is no proof that open carry will get you hurt or make you a target. That is a myth that is used to make people think it is bad to open carry.

    Last edited by CalicoJack10; 03-28-2011 at 11:23 AM. Reason: Bad Spelling
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland
    In anticipation of CCW passing in WI, I took Micheal Bender's PPA class yesterday.
    1) CCW is a crime - the concealed carry of weapons. We already have that; we're trying to get rid of it.
    When we get Constitutional Carry, CCW will exist no more except possibly as an enhancer to other crimes.
    2) I agree people should take training as they are interested & able, but when an instructor goes off into his opinions I'm not getting my money's worth.

    He made some good arguments why open carry is much more dangerous then concealed carry. Not bringing attention to yourself or making yourself a target, not obligating you to become involved in a situation, not informing "the bad guy" that you are armed, etc...
    Concealed carry is more dangerous because it doesn't prevent the attack in the first place. When criminals don't know you can fight back you're at the same risk of being attacked as any of the sheep. I'd rather prevent an attack than survive one.

    [Yes, when states allow concealed carry the rate of violent crime goes down, but there are still people getting attacked. I'd rather not be one of them, & I'd much rather a criminal decide to leave me alone in the first place than that he go to the ER or morgue because of being shot.]

    The vast majority of criminals do not target people who can fight back. Most have some sense of self-preservation. Most are cowards, only going after people they know they can overpower. By letting them see that I can fight back, they're much more likely to leave me alone than to attack me.

    How on earth did he come to the conclusion that any citizen is obligated to become involved in any situation??? I'm not a cop. I carry to protect myself. I will defend any child. I will defend family or friends who are with me when an attack is made.

    I might decide to intervene to freeze a situation until the police can arrive & sort it out, but that would depend on the situation. (Stopping a bank robber w/ a gun pointed at the teller? Yes, even if it means shooting him, because he's threatening someone's life. Stopping a fight between 2 people? Maybe. Depends. Stopping what looks to be a mass murder in progress? How could I do that in a "gun-free" zone?)
    Last edited by MKEgal; 03-28-2011 at 11:39 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    In anticipation of CCW passing in WI, I took Micheal Bender's PPA class yesterday. I took the UT carry class that is combined with the Handgun 1 course.

    The H1 class was essentially a recover of Hunter's Ed. Instead of covering gun and hunting, it covered gun and defense. Instead of what signs to look for in the woods while hunting, it was what signs to look for on the street while commuting, etc... I have been shooting for some time, and most of this was just a recap. There were a few guys in the class that have not, this H1 class was designed for guys like them as an intro to firearms. I think it is perfect for any non-hunter that is looking for an intro into firearms without the hunting info given in Hunter's Ed.

    The UT carry part of the class went over legal issues. When to pull your pistol and when not to pull it. Why avoiding a situation is your best defense. Even if you shoot someone in clear self defense, you'll likely spend $10K defending yourself in court if you win. If it's not clear self defense (even if you feel it was) you'll likely spend more then $10K on defense and the rest of your life in prison. He gave a lot of info on why stopping the threat is the beginning of your fight, not the end.
    The topic that I was most interested in hearing was concealed vs open. He made some good arguments why open carry is much more dangerous then concealed carry. Not bringing attention to yourself or making yourself a target, not obligating you to become involved in a situation, not informing "the bad guy" that you are armed, etc... He did however make it clear that open carrying is your right and protected by the 2nd.

    I think taking this class is a good idea for anyone that is considering carrying, even openly carrying.
    I had posted all of that info in my past threads you clearly have not been paying attention.. & it's more like $ 20,000 grand to defend your self after a self defense shoot minimum, did he also tell you that you will be spending at a minimum 1 night in jail. Congrats on going against the grain here.
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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    In anticipation of CCW passing in WI, I took Micheal Bender's PPA class yesterday.
    How unfortunate.

    Had you gone to the yearly Wisconsin Carry, Inc. meeting instead you would have saved money, put your money to good use, learned about how close to Constitutional Carry we are, and what we all can do to help insure it gets passed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Claytron View Post
    And who exactly are you besides another over zealous couch commando? Not sure why this guy should believe you, random armchair hero #3056, over his instructor?
    Because Mr Bender's class and stance on carrying a side arm has just recently been discussed at great length in a different thread here. Including direct (negative) quotes and replies from Mr. Bender himself?

    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 03-28-2011 at 01:10 PM.
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claytron View Post
    I think what he meant by that was that sometimes openly carrying a firearm can obligate you to react in certain situations because the gun is visible to other people and they now how more information to go by and you know have one less surprise. If some guy runs into a store with his gun drawn ready to kill the cashier in cold blood, hes probably going to ignore everyone else unless he percieves them as a threat. If he runs in ready to shoot and sees you with a gun on your hip, and hes ready to kill in cold blood, do you really think hes going to just turn around and leave?

    At this point if he has seen your gun you are pretty much thrust into an even more dangerous situation, as he will almost definately react to the gun, most likely shooting you the same way he was going to shoot the cashier. Thats a situation where having your gun out in the open has forced you to have to react RIGHT THEN, as opposed to having your weapon concealed, possibly allowing you to stay off his radar and drawn your firearm as he is raising his at the cashier in an obvious attempt to commit murder
    What if, what if, what if...Please show me where this happens. Also, what obligation do I have to help anyone else?
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    939.48(4)
    (4) A person is privileged to defend a 3rd person from real or apparent unlawful interference by another under the same conditions and by the same means as those under and by which the person is privileged to defend himself or herself from real or apparent unlawful interference, provided that the person reasonably believes that the facts are such that the 3rd person would be privileged to act in self-defense and that the person's intervention is necessary for the protection of the 3rd person.

    939.48 - ANNOT.
    A defendant asserting perfect self-defense against a charge of 1st-degree murder must meet an objective threshold showing that he or she reasonably believed that he or she was preventing or terminating an unlawful interference with his or her person and that the force used was necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm. A defendant asserting the defense of unnecessary defensive force s. 940.01 (2) (b) to a charge of 1st-degree murder is not required to satisfy the objective threshold showing. State v. Head, 2002 WI 99, 255 Wis. 2d 194, 648 N.W.2d 413, 99-3071.


    939.48 - ANNOT.
    A person may employ deadly force against another, if the person reasonably believes that force is necessary to protect a 3rd-person or one's self from imminent death or great bodily harm, without incurring civil liability for injury to the other. Clark v. Ziedonis, 513 F. 2d 79 (1975).

    Also if arrested; first don't say anything until you have a lawyer. If you are asked why you carried a firearm do not say it was for self-defense. That automatically injects the phrase "imminent danger" into the issue. Say the firearm was carried as a matter of self security. That too is protected by Art I sec 25. The Wisconsin Supreme court has defined security to mean "protection from preceived danger". There is a vast judicial difference between perceived danger and imminent danger. See Hamdan.

    IANAL These are my opinions.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Thanks for those statutes Captain. The words privilege allows us to help, but does not require us to. In good conscience, I do not see why someone would not want to help another in distress.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by phred View Post
    Please remember Bender's proclivity to Open Carry.
    FYI, that word doesn't mean what you think it means.

    The use of that word implies Bender tends to open carry and that you dislike the habit. Like claiming someone has a proclivity to drink too much, speed, etc.

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    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claytron View Post
    And who exactly are you besides another over zealous couch commando? Not sure why this guy should believe you, random armchair hero #3056, over his instructor?
    Clayton, as an instructor that has talked with GLOCK34 on many occasions, I have had the chance to see that he is not (as you say) a "Armchair Hero", but in fact educated on this matter. (Lest we forget forum rules about personal attacks)

    Also, as an instructor with actual self defense experience, and far more teaching and practical experience in this matter than Mr. Bender, as well as an extensive military and civilian firearms training background, I can tell you first hand that this man has limited knowledge, and while his legal knowledge is exceptional, Bender is not a lawyer, so the legal aspect what he teaches someone is purely speculative. Aside from that the methods he teaches for the use of a handgun are dangerous.

    He is selling a false sense of security. Thats It, Nothing More. Several friends of mine who are instructors, as well as myself, have made it a point to make sure that our courses are all inclusive, and not just a teaser for what the next class will be. When we offer courses, we make sure that our students are prepared in accordance with what we have offered for that course.

    He has made clear that his opinion is all that he considers to be truth, and that is all that matters to him. As MkeGal hinted at, an instructor's opinion should never play a part in appropriate instruction. Opinion is not personal experience, and the best instructors in the world will tell you that it doesn't matter what they think, it only matters what happens.
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    Regular Member cleveland's Avatar
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    Wow...uh, where do I start.

    protias, He did state that criminals skip hard targets. He talked about how criminals profile targets, etc.. I think letting everyone that know your packing only informs the bad guy, it doesn't stop him. If anything, it steals away your element of surprise. If the bad guy has a gun to the back of my head, am I going to hand it over or am I going to try to reenact a scene from Rambo? A gun is valuable, it's worth stealing.

    phred, I don't see how his opinion on concealed carry vs open carry makes him the enemy. He doesn't like open carry, and gave his reasons. He doesn't need to site statistics. Statistics can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to, that includes perpetuating the myths.

    CalicoJack10, The NRA's Personal Protection Outside the Home course sounds like a nice course. I don't have $250 to throw at a course anytime soon, but it looks like a good one to squirrel some cash away for. Thanks for the suggestion.

    MKEgal, Open carry doesn't necessarily prevent the fight either. It's certainly a nice idea, one I could believe, but it's not a fact. As for the obligating someone, Claytron did a fine example of explaining it.

    Glock34, Claytron once again covered that nicely.

    HandyHamlet, I read the post about Bender's email (after I posted this thread) and frankly it looks a lot like a flame war. I am truly surprised to hear that people here are upset that he is charging for his courses. I thought most gun nuts were capitalists and most people against capitalism were liberals. As for constitutional carry, I'm on the fence. On one hand I believe that concealed carry is a privilege, not a right. I'm not talking about owning guns, or carrying them in the open. I'm talking about carrying them concealed in public. On the other hand I believe that I see that any moron can get a license to drive, so how effective can a permit really be? Either way, I will be happy to see it finally pass sometime later this year.

    protias, The obligations would be the example that Clayton posted. Obligations that you do not willingly engage in.

    Captain Nemo, Thank you. I'm very interested in learning the do's and donts of the aftermath. What do I say when I call the police that wont give the anti-gun WI-DA another tool to incarcerate me? Etc...

    Wow, that was a lot of responding! I am not against open carry, and I'm not against concealed carry. I just don't think that being for one makes you the enemy of the other.

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    Regular Member cleveland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    Several friends of mine who are instructors, as well as myself, have made it a point to make sure that our courses are all inclusive, and not just a teaser for what the next class will be.
    It seems that they are similar courses with similar costs (PPA vs NRA), the difference is that he has broken his up for cost effectiveness. Am I wrong here?

    I get the impression that most of his students are just getting their first gun and want to know more. His coarse really seemed suited to that. If you like what you are learning and want more, get the next course. If not, why pay for the rest of the course?

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    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    I don't see how his opinion on concealed carry vs open carry makes him the enemy.
    He's the enemy because he believes the State should permit one's inalienable Right, including a prerequisite class... a class he teaches nonetheless.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    Wow...uh, where do I start.

    protias, He did state that criminals skip hard targets. He talked about how criminals profile targets, etc.. I think letting everyone that know your packing only informs the bad guy, it doesn't stop him. If anything, it steals away your element of surprise. If the bad guy has a gun to the back of my head, am I going to hand it over or am I going to try to reenact a scene from Rambo? A gun is valuable, it's worth stealing.
    There is only one instance where this has happened to a regular person. Out of 80+ million firearm owners in the US, that is a pretty small percentage. There are many documented cases where a person carrying (either openly or concealed) prevented a crime. I posted this before and I'll post it again, please read it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    phred, I don't see how his opinion on concealed carry vs open carry makes him the enemy. He doesn't like open carry, and gave his reasons. He doesn't need to site statistics. Statistics can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to, that includes perpetuating the myths.
    So if statistics can lie, how do you know if he is telling the truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    CalicoJack10, The NRA's Personal Protection Outside the Home course sounds like a nice course. I don't have $250 to throw at a course anytime soon, but it looks like a good one to squirrel some cash away for. Thanks for the suggestion.
    If he can make money from it, good. However, the beef many of us have with him is that he would rather have a license in WI with required training so he can make money. What he doesn't realize is, if Constitutional Carry passes, he will most likely see more business like the instructors in AZ are seeing.

    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    MKEgal, Open carry doesn't necessarily prevent the fight either. It's certainly a nice idea, one I could believe, but it's not a fact. As for the obligating someone, Claytron did a fine example of explaining it.
    Prove it. A certain pancake place in Kennessaw, GA says otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    HandyHamlet, I read the post about Bender's email (after I posted this thread) and frankly it looks a lot like a flame war. I am truly surprised to hear that people here are upset that he is charging for his courses. I thought most gun nuts were capitalists and most people against capitalism were liberals. As for constitutional carry, I'm on the fence. On one hand I believe that concealed carry is a privilege, not a right. I'm not talking about owning guns, or carrying them in the open. I'm talking about carrying them concealed in public. On the other hand I believe that I see that any moron can get a license to drive, so how effective can a permit really be? Either way, I will be happy to see it finally pass sometime later this year.
    See above post for the first part. As for CC being a privilege and OC a right, neither the state nor federal law stipulate the method of carry. We have the right to bear arms.

    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    protias, The obligations would be the example that Clayton posted. Obligations that you do not willingly engage in.
    Again, I am not required by law to help anyone. Please show me in any statute/case law where I am required to help my fellow man.

    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    Wow, that was a lot of responding! I am not against open carry, and I'm not against concealed carry. I just don't think that being for one makes you the enemy of the other.
    Agreed! I firmly believe we have the right to bear arms where, when, and how we please, if we want to carry.

    [rant]
    If someone doesn't want to carry, fine, but please do not hinder me.
    [/rant]
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    Regular Member cleveland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    He's the enemy because he believes the State should permit one's inalienable Right, including a prerequisite class... a class he teaches nonetheless.
    I disagree. Owning a firearm, having the right to carry it are inalienable rights. Carrying a concealed weapon is not a right, it's a privilege.

    If he was not an instructor and believed that the class should be required, would he still be the enemy?
    Last edited by cleveland; 03-28-2011 at 02:48 PM.

  18. #18
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    I disagree. Owning a firearm, having the right to carry it are inalienable rights. Carrying a concealed weapon is not a right, it's a privilege.

    If he was not an instructor and believed that the class should be required, would he still be the enemy?
    Where in the 2nd Amendment or Article 1, Section 25 says conceal carry is a privilege and open carry is a right?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    It seems that they are similar courses with similar costs (PPA vs NRA), the difference is that he has broken his up for cost effectiveness. Am I wrong here?

    I get the impression that most of his students are just getting their first gun and want to know more. His coarse really seemed suited to that. If you like what you are learning and want more, get the next course. If not, why pay for the rest of the course?
    The cost is based on an average for the NRA PPOTH course. As far as bender, it is quite the opposite, about 99% of what he covers in all of his courses is covered in just the 1 NRA course. For that reason it should be known that what he teaches over several classes is the same as you SHOULD learn in just one class. Also, the cost is up to the instructor, the NRA has no cost requirement on any of their courses, they just encourage you to charge a standard amount. That is why I have developed my own courses and am getting certified outside the NRA, because I don't like being given strong suggestions that someone's personal safety and security SHOULD cost a certain amount.

    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    Wow...uh, where do I start.

    CalicoJack10, The NRA's Personal Protection Outside the Home course sounds like a nice course. I don't have $250 to throw at a course anytime soon, but it looks like a good one to squirrel some cash away for. Thanks for the suggestion.
    I would also suggest taking the PP Inside the home course before you take the PPOTH one. This is just because the difference in dynamics between the two kind of go hand in hand. The PPITH course lays a great defensive foundation for the PPOTH. And between the two, you will still save a great deal of money over taking bender's courses.

    Also, I have to STRESS the fact that personal protection has an aspect that most people never think about, and even fewer can teach effectively. That is the psychological effects related to self defense. I personally am far more versed in this than even a great deal of psychologists and court officials. This is something that, according to my understanding of bender's classes, he barely covers if at all. This is also something that an instructor needs a serious amount of first or second hand knowledge to teach effectively.

    The opposition to bender is the idea that someone who is an effective instructor SHOULD be able to tailor each item they teach to the student. Whether it is in a group class, or one on one. That is the primary reason I teach privately, because the needs and abilities of each person differs greatly. And the best way to get someone to be good at what they need to do, it to devote one on one attention to them. This also provides instructors like me to be able to do something that PPA can't effectively do.

    Remain focused on the safety and security of our students, their friends, their loved ones, and anyone else who might have to be defended by that students use of a firearm for protection.

    NOTE: My course prices are based on the acceptable cost for group classes despite the fact that I teach private classes. This is something that several instructors, in several states (Including myself) have agreed (With Each Other) to do in order to allow people who want to be safe to get the biggest bang for their buck.

    Personal safety is not about making money. It is about PERSONAL SAFETY. If I happen to make a few bucks in the process, OK. If not, I am not concerned with that. A majority of the money I make from doing this goes into events like the "Fun Shoot and Fundraiser" i am putting together for Special Olympics on May 1st.

    Now if you will excuse me, I have a kids safety class to teach.
    I am Calico Jack,,,, And I approve this message!
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  20. #20
    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    I disagree. Owning a firearm, having the right to carry it are inalienable rights. Carrying a concealed weapon is not a right, it's a privilege.

    If he was not an instructor and believed that the class should be required, would he still be the enemy?
    I have to drop a note on this one too.

    If carrying a firearm is an "Inalienable Right", then how can you alienate certain parts of it. If I have a right to carry, why don't I have the right to carry how I choose? Also, does this mean that I have a right to carry a firearm, but in the winter, if my jacket covers it, I do not have a right to wear that jacket? Seems to me you would like to see restrictions on our rights, NOT COOL.

    And YES, if he was not an instructor and believed that a class should be required, then he would be against our rights. The thing of this is, if you put requirements and restrictions on something, it is no longer a "Right" and is then nothing more than a privilege. We are fighting for our Rights, not for the OK from politicians. We can make up our own minds, we don't need others to do it for us.

    I am an INSTRUCTOR, and I approve this statement.
    I am Calico Jack,,,, And I approve this message!
    (Paid for by the blood of patriots, and Calico Jack Defense)
    Calico Jack Defense

  21. #21
    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phred View Post
    Please remember Bender's negative predisposition toward Open Carry. Did he back up his thoughts with statistics? If not, then he is just perpetuating the myths.

    His remark that I remember most is that "open carrying of a firearm is an invite to getting a pipe to the back of the head." I've asked this before here: "Has anybody been piped yet?"
    The short answer is yes it has happened... Once...
    A man in Milwaukee had his (OC) firearm taken at gun-point. BUT, as Protias pointed out, that is the only one I know of. With the numbers that carry, I would say this is a super rare thing to even be able to read about.

  22. #22
    Regular Member cleveland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    There is only one instance where this has happened to a regular person.
    There you have it, it CAN and HAS happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    So if statistics can lie, how do you know if he is telling the truth?
    How do I know he's not lying about his opinion? I guess I just have to take his word for it. :-)


    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    If he can make money from it, good. However, the beef many of us have with him is that he would rather have a license in WI with required training so he can make money. What he doesn't realize is, if Constitutional Carry passes, he will most likely see more business like the instructors in AZ are seeing.
    Why do you believe this is about him making money and not about his personal beliefs? Has he said that he wants these classes to be law so that he can make more money? If what your saying is true about instructors making more money in AZ, then clearly his beliefs directly conflict with his potential income.


    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    That only proves that it HAS prevented a fight. It doesn't prove that it always will. Look at every time an open carrier has used their firearm. That alone proves that open carry does not necessarily prevent a fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    neither the state nor federal law stipulate the method of carry.
    Exactly, and that leaves room for interpretation.



    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Again, I am not required by law to help anyone. Please show me in any statute/case law where I am required to help my fellow man.
    No one said you were. I never said "legally obligated" I said obligated. There is certainly a difference.

  23. #23
    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Thanks for those statutes Captain. The words privilege allows us to help, but does not require us to. In good conscience, I do not see why someone would not want to help another in distress.
    I for one would have a very hard time "helping" others with my gun. I carry a gun for self protection, and the protection of my family members. The way I look at it, most people that will not carry, just must not think that the life given to them is worth protecting.
    On top of this, I do not have the cash to fight a court battle.
    Now don't get me wrong. I would not be able to just stand by and watch some (bad) crime take place. I just would not "help out" unless I was sure that a life was in true danger. I would not be happy at all about it. Think about it like this, this person needs me to risk my life because he/she did not feel the need to carry any form of protection...

  24. #24
    Regular Member cleveland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    Seems to me you would like to see restrictions on our rights, NOT COOL.

    HAHAHAHAHAHA! I have been accused of a lot of things in my life, but restricting the rights of any American has NEVER been one of them. I think the reason you said that is because I said concealed carry is a privilege. If that's the reason you think that, you are mistaken about me. If it's something else, please enlighten me.

    Concealed carry IS a privilege in WI that only some police have the privilege of doing legally. If it's not a privilege, then why aren't the concealed carry crowd doing it legally? I'm not talking about what should be, I am talking about what is. In WI the law is that you have the right to carry openly, and you will be arrested for concealed carry. I know this first hand, twice.

    Should you take a class and educate yourself before carrying? Of course! Should it be mandatory? I don't know. Does me not knowing make me the enemy?

  25. #25
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    Concealed carry IS a privilege in WI that only some police have the privilege of doing legally.
    Join us in changing that.

    If it's not a privilege, then why aren't the concealed carry crowd doing it legally? I'm not talking about what should be, I am talking about what is. In WI the law is that you have the right to carry openly, and you will be arrested for concealed carry. I know this first hand, twice.
    Two more reasons to join WC, Inc. It will not be illegal much longer.

    Should you take a class and educate yourself before carrying? Of course! Should it be mandatory? I don't know. Does me not knowing make me the enemy?
    I haven't met one person who doesn't think classes are a good idea. As far as not knowing... this is a constant educational experience for me. The more I get involved the more I learn. There is no crime in not knowing. The crime is in not changing that.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 03-28-2011 at 04:03 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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