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Thread: Question Re: Police / ID request

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    Question Re: Police / ID request

    Can someone clarify for me the question as to whether or not it is lawful for a Police officer to ask for ID if you are OC but in an establishmem (indoors). Using the example of OC, but as soon as one enters a vehicle you are now CC. Michigan Law states that if CC and asked for ID you must comply. Michigan is not a stop and ID state so one cannot be asked for ID while OC outdoors where OC is lawful. But once indoors are you considered now to be CC and legal to be asked for ID? Whew, now I'm really confused.

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    it is legal for an officer to ask for ID anytime. It is NOT legal for leo to demand ID, unless you are involved in an activity that requires you to comply with such a request. example: Driving. If you are pulled over, you are required to present your DL to the officer. Same if you are CC'ing, or hunting/fishing. Outside of a very limited few parameters like these examples, you are not required to produce or even carry Identification.

    Inside a building, open carry is still open carry. No MCL that requires you to provide ID for open carrying. (however, it is slightly more complicated if carrying in an establishment that is licensed to sell alcohol for example, as you are not allowed to OC there without a cpl or another exemption. Although you would not be required to provide or even carry ID in this establishment things will probably go much more smoothly if you were to hand over your papers)

    If you are carrying in a vehicle, concealed or otherwise, you would be required to provide ID.

    One more quick scenario....

    if you were cc'ing earlier in the day, but are not carrying a concealed pistol when stopped by an officer, you do not need to disclose or carry/provide ID.

    Sec. 5f.

    (1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.

    (2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:

    (a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.

    (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.

    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
    http://legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28u5n...D%20disclosure
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 03-28-2011 at 04:55 PM.
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  3. #3
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Being indoors has nothing to do with anything....maybe

    There is an ongoing debate on whether or not an OCer with a CPL needs to disclose if they are OCing in one of the Firearms Free Zones (FFZ) listed iin MCL 750.234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    Due to an exemption listed in the law anybody with a CPL or permission from the owner/owner's agent may legally be in possession of a firearm on these premises (except for a court). This doesn't mean we can conceal as that is regulated by a diffferent law.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
    Some believe that since the act of possessing a firearm in these places is against the law it gives the officer enough Reasonable Suspicion (RS) for him to do an investigatory stop to determine if you qualify for one of the listed exemptions. Now, this isn't the same as requiring that you disclose your CPL and I.D. like in the CCW law. You are still free to refuse to show them, but you'll most likely be taken "downtown" where you'll get to show them to prove your exempt status anyway.

    MCL 776.20 places the burden of proof of any exemption in any firearms possession prosecution on the indidvidual.

    In any prosecution for the violation of any acts of the state relative to use, licensing and possession of pistols or firearms, the burden of establishing any exception, excuse, proviso or exemption contained in any such act shall be upon the defendant but this does not shift the burden of proof for the violation.
    So you are free to refuse I.D. and CPL to an officer if you are in one of the FFZs with an openly carried firearm, but if you are arrested and prosecuted it is your responsibility to provide proof of your exemption to the court. Or, you can show your proof of exemption to the officer on the scene and hopefully not be arrested and get to sleep in your own bed that night.

    But again, this is only in relation to being in one of the FFZs. It has nothing to do with just being indoors.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    I do understand that you would be well advised to provide I'd upon request in a FFZ while OC with a CPL. My concern was refusing to show ID while OC, say.... In a resturaunt ( no alcohol ) or department store. My understanding was that OC and entering a vehicle " or building" was now considered to be CC. Clearly that is incorrect. Vehicle is building is not.

    Re: OC in a bar/ resturaunt I had read the law stipulated the establishment had to derive greater than 50% of revenue from the sale of alcohol to be considered of limits to CC. Information posted here states that just the sale of alcohol makes it off limits to CC but ok to OC with a CPL.

    Looked up MCL Act 8 436.1 - 436.58.........
    Indicates this has been repealed ???

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    If you have a CPL you can OC in a place that has most of its income from alcohol, (there is no 51% in the law). If you have a CPL you can OC or CC in a place that has a liquor license. MCL 28.425o If you do not have a CPL you may not posses a firearm on the premisis of any place that has a liquor license of any kind, wether or not they are currently selling alcohol. MCL 750.234d.

    Is this what you needed, or no?
    Last edited by stainless1911; 03-28-2011 at 07:48 PM.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    In regards to carrying where alcohol is served....

    Without CPL no carry anywhere on the property of any establishment licensed to sell alcohol. They don't have to sell alcohol, only be licensed to do so.

    750.234d

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    As you've already found the referenced law has been repealed but it has also been replaced with another law (that I can't find right now...I'll keep looking) that states something to the effect of "any law that refers to Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws shall now refer to this new law." With some research we've found that this all boils down to any place with any type of licesne to sell alcohol in any capacity.

    So, NO CPL = no carry any place licensed to sell alcohol.

    With a CPL you may not conceal in any place where the primary source of income is the sale of alcohol for consumption on the premises.

    MCL 28.425o

    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business.
    Unfortunately the law doesn't specify how "primary source of income" should be calculated. If a business' income is: 40% alcohol, 35% food, and 25% merchandise does that mean that their "primary source of income" is alcohol or that their "primary source of income" is a combination of food and merchandise? I don't know, but I'd play it safe and choose to err on the side of caution.

    Also, notice that nowhere in the law does it mention "51%" or "greater than 50%." These are just things that people have inferred from the law and NOT what the law actually states.

    Bronson
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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    As you've already found the referenced law has been repealed but it has also been replaced with another law (that I can't find right now...I'll keep looking) that states something to the effect of "any law that refers to Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws shall now refer to this new law."
    Found it.

    Act 58 of 1998: Michigan Liquor Control Code of 1998

    436.2303

    Sec. 1303.

    (1) This act does not impair or affect any act done, offense committed or right accruing, accrued or acquired, or penalty, forfeiture or punishment incurred prior to the time this act takes effect, but the same may be enjoyed, asserted, enforced, prosecuted or inflicted, as fully and to the same extent as if this act had not been passed.

    (2) When the commission is directed or authorized to promulgate rules by this act and rules exist on the date the requirement to promulgate rules takes effect, which rules the commission believes adequately cover the matter, the commission may determine that new rules are not required or may delay the promulgation of new rules until the commission considers it advisable. Those rules promulgated under former act 1933 (Ex Sess) PA 8 and in effect on the effective date of this act shall remain in effect until rescinded or otherwise changed according to law, as provided for in section 31 of the administrative procedures act of 1969, 1969 PA 306, MCL 24.231.

    (3) In the case of the commission created pursuant to this act which was preceded by a commission with the same or similar name and functions, members of the predecessor commission shall continue in office for the duration of the terms of office for which they were appointed and with the new members appointed shall constitute the new commission. Members shall be appointed under this act only as terms of the former members expire or vacancies occur. Members of the predecessor commission may be appointed to the new commission to succeed themselves subject to the limits for any total period of service that may be set forth in this act.

    (4) It is the intention of the legislature that editorial changes in the language of the statutes recodified in this act not be construed as changes to the meanings of those statutes.

    (5) A reference in any other law to the Michigan liquor control act, 1933 (Ex Sess) PA 8, being MCL 436.1 to 436.58, is considered to be a reference to this act.

    (6) A reference to a provision in former 1933 (Ex Sess) PA 8 is considered to be a reference to the successor provision in this act. A reference in any application, document, authorization, order, license, or other document issued or provided by the commission or its authorized agent to former 1933 (Ex Sess) PA 8 is considered to be a reference to this act.
    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 03-28-2011 at 08:50 PM.
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    Hey Group, thanks for the reply's and all the information. I know I veered off my original topic of Police ID request so I appreciate the participation.

    Based on the "old law" you could have CC in a B Wild wings or Chili's for example, but now it appears one must, or at least to err on the safe side, OC with CPL in these places the same as a Bar or Tavern ?

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FS23 View Post
    Hey Group, thanks for the reply's and all the information. I know I veered off my original topic of Police ID request so I appreciate the participation.

    Based on the "old law" you could have CC in a B Wild wings or Chili's for example, but now it appears one must, or at least to err on the safe side, OC with CPL in these places the same as a Bar or Tavern ?
    No No No. Based on the old law you could only OC in a restaurant that served booze. The new law states you can carried concealed in a restaurant that serves booze as long as the liquor sales are not the primary source of income. (whatever that means).

    General rule, if it's mostly food with some booze sales you can CC or OC with a CPL. If it's mostly a bar with no or little food service then you must OC with a CPL.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Youre not the only one confused by our unconstitutional laws, judges, lawyers, legislators, media, police, CC people OC people, the general public, everyone. Maybe that's why they said simply, "shall not be infringed", and "every person".

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    Thumbs up

    Thanks Guy's !!

    You're Awsome...... Want to continue to be Law Abiding while exercising rights afforded us by "The Constitution"......

    This is a great resource...... found out about this organization and "My Parents Open Carry" through Mark Walters and Armed American Radio !!

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    No No No. Based on the old law you could only OC in a restaurant that served booze. The new law states you can carried concealed in a restaurant that serves booze as long as the liquor sales are not the primary source of income. (whatever that means).

    General rule, if it's mostly food with some booze sales you can CC or OC with a CPL. If it's mostly a bar with no or little food service then you must OC with a CPL.
    +1
    I usually think of it like this: If the place offers full dinners and has a set menu, booths, and people may have a few drinks with their dinners, CC is allowed. If however, the place has "bar food" available but almost everyone is just drinking, then cc is prohibited. I've been told by 2 different LEOs at two different times that a "bar" is cc prohibited, and a restaurant that serves alcohol is not. As there really is no way to know for sure, I use this as my guide. Whether this belief serves me well in places that appear to be close to the divider I play it safe and OC with my cpl.

    Michigan is strange in that a person with a cpl can oc just about anywhere ... it is very unrestrictive. Most states limit handguns entirely from their prohibited places. On the other hand, Michigan is one of the most prohibitive places for those without a cpl, limiting oc in many places that one would naturally go during any day.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FS23 View Post
    Thanks Guy's !!

    You're Awsome...... Want to continue to be Law Abiding while exercising rights afforded us by "The Constitution"......

    This is a great resource...... found out about this organization and "My Parents Open Carry" through Mark Walters and Armed American Radio !!
    Well the book is a decent reference for why people should open carry as well as discuss some of the pros and cons. I highly recommend it.... Also there is the Open Carry reference guidewhichh explains all these confusing laws and more. You can order that insoft-cover or as a download here. http://www.citizensleaguesd.com/p/store.html
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    According to the manager I spoke with at bww in lake Orion none of the bww in Michigan make their primary source of income from alcohol.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    So now,based on the replys here,how about some comments from the group as to how each would react to a "stop and I'd" situation where you are OC in a non PFZ and asked for I'd. Who would comply even though you're not lawfully required to show I'd without the officer having suspicion you have done anything wrong.
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    Depends on how the cop was acting.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    No No No. Based on the old law you could only OC in a restaurant that served booze. The new law states you can carried concealed in a restaurant that serves booze as long as the liquor sales are not the primary source of income. (whatever that means).

    General rule, if it's mostly food with some booze sales you can CC or OC with a CPL. If it's mostly a bar with no or little food service then you must OC with a CPL.
    Note: I may be wrong, but I believe that before the state went "shall issue", those who had licenses to carry concealed could carry their concealed pistol everywhere... at least according to state law. So, in regards to carrying concealed, the old, old law allowed carry everywhere; the old law forbade carrying in any licensed establishment; and the current law forbids concealed carry as if the place's primary source of income is the sale of alcohol for consumption on the premises.
    I think this is the perfect example of how the legislative process is the epitome of logic and reasoned deliberation <not>
    If a person has a cpl, Michigan is one of, if not THE, "nicest" states in which to OC; if you don't have a cpl, it is TERRIBLE. Now if people would just stop getting their panties in a bunch if a person oc's in one of the 5o zones, we cpl holders who OC would have it almost perfect. Then we could focus on getting the general prohibited places removed from the books.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Doin' my part

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FS23 View Post
    So now,based on the replys here,how about some comments from the group as to how each would react to a "stop and I'd" situation where you are OC in a non PFZ and asked for I'd. Who would comply even though you're not lawfully required to show I'd without the officer having suspicion you have done anything wrong.
    I usually carry a CONCEALED backup, so at those times I need to inform and show ID. Since my Grand Rapids New Year's Eve incident, I've started to carry without my backup and, if asked I would just answer, "why do you ask?" If the cop seems pleasant, perhaps I would show him/her AFTER I told them that I am just being nice by showing my ID. But since I feel it is not "pleasant" to be stopped for not doing anything wrong, I probably would tell them "I'm busy and in a hurry and, unless I've violated some law, I am going to have to say 'Goodbye'".
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  20. #20
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    According to the manager I spoke with at bww in lake Orion none of the bww in Michigan make their primary source of income from alcohol.
    Company Overview

    Buffalo Wild Wings operates 232 company owned restaurants and 420 franchised restaurants in 42 states. The firm's principal business is the casual restaurant business. The bulk of their revenues come from restaurant sales at their company-owned restaurants (91%). Food and nonalcoholic beverages accounted for 76% of restaurant sales, with the remaining 24% coming from alcoholic beverages. The menu item with the highest sales volume is chicken wings at 21% of total restaurant sales. Franchise fees and royalties are 9.3% of revenues.[2]

    http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Buffalo_Wild_Wings_(BWLD)
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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