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Thread: Whats the real Death Toll?

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    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Whats the real Death Toll?

    A Veteran is someone who has willingly signed a contract with the American People. This contract says that they are willing to give their lives in defense of YOUR freedom. And long after they leave the military, and have come home to their families, they realize that giving their life for your freedom is exactly what they have done.

    In providing for your freedom, veterans effectively create their own prison. The cost of your Mocha Poop Swirl Late Crappacino is not $5.25 at Starbucks. It is measured by a cost that has no equal; it is measured in the cost of the lives of EVERYONE who serves this great nation. The prison that a veteran lives in is one that they will try and break free from alone, because they do not ask for help. It comes in the form of poverty that is so devastating that 1 in 4 veterans can't afford to eat, and 1 in 4 will attempt suicide, and even 1 in 4 will end up homeless at some point as a result of their military service. And those are just the ones that are "Lucky" enough to make it home. For the daft ones, that means that less than 25% of veterans who come home after serving will have a chance at a mediocre life if they don't end up committing suicide first.

    The things you will never see are the dreams about friends and brothers that they could not save. Things like being kept from their children as a result of their "Honorable" service. The wives who can no longer deal with the pain the veterans feel so they walk away. The accusations of being a bad person because the veteran chose to defend your right to badmouth them. The weight of what they have been through that they will never share because they agreed to take on the burden of your safety. The freedoms that are taken away as a result of their service. The ridicule that is passed on by so many on the streets. The condescension by those who are better off because they chose not to defend you. The courts treating a drug dealer, or a violent felon with more dignity and respect than a veteran with no prior criminal record. The kindness and compassion for those who were committing these acts not 5 minutes before.

    Veterans are those that have given their lives for your freedom, and even if you never see that they suffer in silence, they all suffer a great deal. The cost of your freedom is far more than you can imagine, and has sparked slogans like "For those who fight for it, Freedom has a price the protected never know." That is a burden they take on willingly, and would do again over and over to keep even one of you from having to suffer through what they live with every day.

    So when you see someone who has defended you, remember that they did not make it home safe, they are scarred with wounds that will never heal until they have passed on, and when you reach out your hand and thank the guy wearing a Vietnam Veteran hat, you are not just thanking him for what he has done, you are thanking him for what he is still doing.

    You Can Not Serve Without Giving Your Life For Your Country!
    I am Calico Jack,,,, And I approve this message!
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  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    A Veteran is someone who has willingly signed a contract with the American People. This contract says that they are willing to give their lives in defense of YOUR freedom. And long after they leave the military, and have come home to their families, they realize that giving their life for your freedom is exactly what they have done.
    Well, if they actually gave their life, it'd be a bit difficult for them to come home to their families...

    But I like (I think) where you're going with this, so I'll indulge for a while.

    In providing for your freedom, veterans effectively create their own prison. The cost of your Mocha Poop Swirl Late Crappacino is not $5.25 at Starbucks. It is measured by a cost that has no equal; it is measured in the cost of the lives of EVERYONE who serves this great nation. The prison that a veteran lives in is one that they will try and break free from alone, because they do not ask for help. It comes in the form of poverty that is so devastating that 1 in 4 veterans can't afford to eat, and 1 in 4 will attempt suicide, and even 1 in 4 will end up homeless at some point as a result of their military service. And those are just the ones that are "Lucky" enough to make it home. For the daft ones, that means that less than 25% of veterans who come home after serving will have a chance at a mediocre life if they don't end up committing suicide first.
    As a veteran, I find that both harsh as well as insightful. Do we struggle? Oh, boy. Some do, some don't.

    I know I do. It's not so much the ones who came home. It's the ones who didn't, but most importantly, their families. That's on my mind the most. I suppose I'm lucky, in that given my profession, we any of us bought it, we'd probably all have bought it. Survivor guilt shouldn't enter into the picture, but it does nevertheless, in large part because accidents aboard aircraft are usually the result of human error, so when friends go down, and I've flown with when, I can't but think "why them? Why not me?"

    The things you will never see are the dreams about friends and brothers that they could not save. Things like being kept from their children as a result of their "Honorable" service.
    Been there.

    The wives who can no longer deal with the pain the veterans feel so they walk away.
    Done that.

    The accusations of being a bad person because the veteran chose to defend your right to badmouth them. The weight of what they have been through that they will never share because they agreed to take on the burden of your safety. The freedoms that are taken away as a result of their service. The ridicule that is passed on by so many on the streets. The condescension by those who are better off because they chose not to defend you. The courts treating a drug dealer, or a violent felon with more dignity and respect than a veteran with no prior criminal record. The kindness and compassion for those who were committing these acts not 5 minutes before.
    I have not experienced any of the above. In fact, quite the opposite.

    Veterans are those that have given their lives for your freedom, and even if you never see that they suffer in silence, they all suffer a great deal. The cost of your freedom is far more than you can imagine, and has sparked slogans like "For those who fight for it, Freedom has a price the protected never know." That is a burden they take on willingly, and would do again over and over to keep even one of you from having to suffer through what they live with every day.

    So when you see someone who has defended you, remember that they did not make it home safe, they are scarred with wounds that will never heal until they have passed on, and when you reach out your hand and thank the guy wearing a Vietnam Veteran hat, you are not just thanking him for what he has done, you are thanking him for what he is still doing.
    I'll agree with the above.

    You Can Not Serve Without Giving Your Life For Your Country!
    I'm a fan of Robert Heinlein's idea of citizenship. I applaud Israel, Sweden, and all other countries which require some form of service. Things which are freely given have no value. It's a lesson I think many American citizens have never learned.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  3. #3
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    I'm a fan of Robert Heinlein's idea of citizenship. I applaud Israel, Sweden, and all other countries which require some form of service. Things which are freely given have no value. It's a lesson I think many American citizens have never learned.
    I am not a fan of this and personally feel that in a "free" society only volunteer service should be respected along with the right not to serve.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    I am on both sides of the fence for the "Right to serve" vs. the "Required to serve" I see the benefits of both.

    The above statement is as a result of the combination of effects that have been felt by those that serve. Mainly my Vietnam era vet friends. The general idea being that the scars of those that serve are deep, and will never go away. I include myself in the OP, as I have been through most of that myself, but I make it a point to thank vets as well as active for what they have done, and what they go through as a result.
    I am Calico Jack,,,, And I approve this message!
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    The high sacrifice for freedom by veterans makes it all the more abominable for judges and politicians to squander it for us.

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    Personally I'm torn when it comes to mandatory vs voluntary service. I think a 2 year compulsory service would do a lot of good for a lot of citizens in terms of preparing them for life, giving back to their country, and helping to promote patriotism. But on the other side of this I don't think it should be the job of the government to prepare people for life as an adult (that's the job of parents...who sadly have been failing for awhile now), training would get further watered down due to various complaints (they already can't cuss among other things), and it could affect the quality of those that stay in the service.

    Plus it could turn public opinion against the military. Rather than seeing the good that is done and the big picture, people might just remember whatever issues they had while in and instead focus on those petty things. Now I know it's worked for other countries, but I also know that every society is different and what works for one doesn't always work for another.

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    I can see it now, spending an entire year just to get new 18 year old recruits into some sort of decent shape so they can at least see their pecker and toes for the first time in their life. Thankfully the Army is starting to throw people out who can't even meet the minimum requirements, which there are a lot of now. If we opened the flood gates with mandatory service, there'd have to be a 30 month contract at a minimum just to extend basic training to get the kids in shape. I look at it like this though, if you won't serve in the US military, you have less of a spine than an Israeli transvestite/sexual who has to serve.

    Good post though, and I agree. There's definitely a lack of compensation for the sacrifice given.

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    Service

    My farther told me "You owe the country four years of your life, for all the opportunitys America will give you." I had just got my draft notice Nov 72. I went delayed enlistment USAF.

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    Whats the real death toll?

    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    A Veteran is someone who has willingly signed a contract with the American People. This contract says that they are willing to give their lives in defense of YOUR freedom. And long after they leave the military, and have come home to their families, they realize that giving their life for your freedom is exactly what they have done.

    In providing for your freedom, veterans effectively create their own prison. The cost of your Mocha Poop Swirl Late Crappacino is not $5.25 at Starbucks. It is measured by a cost that has no equal; it is measured in the cost of the lives of EVERYONE who serves this great nation. The prison that a veteran lives in is one that they will try and break free from alone, because they do not ask for help. It comes in the form of poverty that is so devastating that 1 in 4 veterans can't afford to eat, and 1 in 4 will attempt suicide, and even 1 in 4 will end up homeless at some point as a result of their military service. And those are just the ones that are "Lucky" enough to make it home. For the daft ones, that means that less than 25% of veterans who come home after serving will have a chance at a mediocre life if they don't end up committing suicide first.

    The things you will never see are the dreams about friends and brothers that they could not save. Things like being kept from their children as a result of their "Honorable" service. The wives who can no longer deal with the pain the veterans feel so they walk away. The accusations of being a bad person because the veteran chose to defend your right to badmouth them. The weight of what they have been through that they will never share because they agreed to take on the burden of your safety. The freedoms that are taken away as a result of their service. The ridicule that is passed on by so many on the streets. The condescension by those who are better off because they chose not to defend you. The courts treating a drug dealer, or a violent felon with more dignity and respect than a veteran with no prior criminal record. The kindness and compassion for those who were committing these acts not 5 minutes before.

    Veterans are those that have given their lives for your freedom, and even if you never see that they suffer in silence, they all suffer a great deal. The cost of your freedom is far more than you can imagine, and has sparked slogans like "For those who fight for it, Freedom has a price the protected never know." That is a burden they take on willingly, and would do again over and over to keep even one of you from having to suffer through what they live with every day.

    So when you see someone who has defended you, remember that they did not make it home safe, they are scarred with wounds that will never heal until they have passed on, and when you reach out your hand and thank the guy wearing a Vietnam Veteran hat, you are not just thanking him for what he has done, you are thanking him for what he is still doing.

    You Can Not Serve Without Giving Your Life For Your Country!
    Very well put CalicoJack 10. Most have no clue and will never understand.

  10. #10
    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    To those of you that have defended the freedoms I enjoy, past, present, and future, I will stand with you anytime. And thank you for my freedom.
    I am Calico Jack,,,, And I approve this message!
    (Paid for by the blood of patriots, and Calico Jack Defense)
    Calico Jack Defense

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    I signed because I wasn't feeling fulfilled in my life with the desk jobs.
    I signed because of the thousands dead 9/11/2001.
    I remember watching them fling themselves out of the building, hastening their death, rather than being burnt or crushed, possibly slowly.

    I remember when we received marching orders. October of 2002 we began predeployment operations.

    6 months is a long time to reflect on the realities of warfare. Many nights were spent meticulously PMCS'ing my equipment, and running through combat drills, including NBC/MOPP drills. "Free time" did not exist. Sleep schedules rotated from 10 hour duty days to 15+ hour duty days. Hell, I can recall staying up 24 hours on more than a few occasions.

    I was in Germany, away from everybody, and everything that I loved. Yet it had distinct purpose.

    I spent time thinking about the bodies. Tumbling, falling. It fueled me.

    I rolled in 1st Wave OIF I, March 20th 2003.

    Surrealism sets in, and you have to shake it off. Or you die.

    I remember taking the barrel of my 16 and shoving it rather hard into the chest of a 19/20 year old kid who ran up to me with a large black sack, on the side of a very noisy roadway, from the other side of my truck. Had the selector not been on safe at that particular moment, he would have been dead. When I calmed down after considering shoving my bayonet in this child, I realized he was just a kid trying to make some money off the GI's by selling cigarettes he no doubt looted from some local shop.

    The alternative could have been so much worse. The kid could have destroyed my squad, and my truck.

    Children had been given grenades and told to "take the gifts to the Americans. Remember child, squeeze them tight and don't let go until you get there.", then they drop them off in your lap?

    Ever contemplated shooting kids? War sound glorious now?

    What about the children being told to stop in Arabic, and they stop and drop the grenade at their feet. Then they don't move.

    Ever think of how that sits in your mind?

    Civilians think its all Rambo blood **** and gore.

    Never contemplating the complication of warfare and the burdens it sets in the mind. They view it as some sort of "awesome" "super fun", or "badass" thing.

    F'ing Hollywood ********.

    Every time you pass some "woman" in an abaya, you make sure your weapons hot, and that your gunner is eyeballs on target. They loved dressing as women and popping out with a creatively tucked RPG to drop the lead, mid, or rear vehicle.

    Oh or the wonderful "white flag" gag.

    Always loved that one.


    Maybe it was the leisure cruises through small towns or ammo factories where the headless or disemboweled bodies of enemy combatants with their cold, dead black eyes, stared at you as you passed, that make war so pleasant. Maybe it was the smell of their decomposing bodies. I just can't recall what I liked more.


    Folks, you have no god damned idea what precious parts of humanity have been sacrificed by your servicemembers. For those of you capable of appreciating it, thanks a ton! Veterans and Active service members NEED your support.

    Here is a tip for you to consider when your vet buddy/family-member comes home.

    Do NOT ask them, "Did you kill anybody?".

    If we have, we don't want to f'ing talk about it k?

    What a stupid F'ing question asked all the god damned time. Just shut it you immoral, childlike piece of crap. It is not an appropriate question.


    I go to the VA all the time and I see dudes who are obviously living in disrepair. Hell maybe I am one of them.


    Soldiers are taught to be completely self reliable, and self sufficient.
    Soldiers are taught to "adapt and overcome".
    Soldiers are taught to push aside their personal life, and serve their country.
    Got a mental or physical bruise? Drive on!

    It's no wonder that vets have a hard time adjusting.

    C'est la vie.

    Edit: This is merely to make you guys really consider what these men and women go through. Just felt that needed to be stated.
    Last edited by slowfiveoh; 04-02-2011 at 02:20 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Free will is only slightly a conscious exercise...

  12. #12
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    I am firmly of the opinion, that the best thing we can do for our veterans, is demand that our government stops creating more of them.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    I am firmly of the opinion, that the best thing we can do for our veterans, is demand that our government stops creating more of them.
    So does that mean no Military or, those in the Military remain in the Military until they die? Therefore no living veterans in the civilian population?

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    So does that mean no Military or, those in the Military remain in the Military until they die? Therefore no living veterans in the civilian population?
    Can't speak for him, but I'm of the opinion we really use them up while their in the service, and burn them out, treating many of them like second class citizens so that many don't want to re-up. On the flip side, we can't coddle them, either, as there are wars going on.

    Families were bigger during WWII, and were better at caring for their own when they returned. A generation earlier, many had fathers and uncles in WWI. Now, not so much, as the number of vets as a percentage of the general population is much less than it was then

    I don't know how significant that contribution is to the numbers on the streets, but I know a significant portion of the problem is that a commander would rather someone who's marginal simply get out and make room for someone on whom they can better rely.

    Many commanders still take good care of their troops. They work with the ones who're marginal, in the hopes of helping make them better. They're the true leaders. A few, however, put the screws to the marginal performers, without a care in the world as to what long-term effect that may have on the troop. They're not leaders, but cutthroat business managers, and create as many problems for the VA as they solve.

    Part of that problem involves not making a better quality cut during recruitment, but the flipside is that there's not as many volunteers as we need.

    I do know we've done a fair job of having learned the lessons of yesterday's wars. We no longer fight force on force, if at all possible, and instead fight asymmetric warfare. That means leveraging technology so we need fewer boots on the ground to accomplish. That reduces the number of vets, as well.

    The problem is, our enemies have learned similar lessons.

    This is truly a multi-faceted issue, and there are not a lot of cost-effective solutions.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    So does that mean no Military or, those in the Military remain in the Military until they die? Therefore no living veterans in the civilian population?



    I should have added the qualifier; "unless absolutely necessary", and I should have specified "Combat veterans".

    I think that those in D.C. tend to send our troops into harms way and into other counties when it isn't really necessary to defend our Union. The current actions in Libya are a good example of this. I would also prefer that we close our bases around the world, even in friendly counties like Japan and South Korea, let them defend themselves. I don't really see how a base in South Korea our Japan is defending the U.S.


    I would like it if we could change from a "standing military" back to a "militia type system"
    where most people in the U.S. are expected (but not required) to keep arms (possibly State issued in addition to personal) for them selves. If a situation arises where we need an "army" for our defense it could be comprised of volunteers from the "militia", those that don't volunteer can defend their homes and communities against invasion. When the threat is neutralized, the Army is disbanded until it is needed again.
    However from a practicality standpoint I don't see this happening anytime soon.

    I don't think the Framers intended for us to have a "full time Military".
    Article one Section eight, in part states that; congress has the power .... "To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years"

    If we decide we really need a "full time military" then we should have one by amending the Constitution, not ignoring it.


    I hope no one took any of my comments as disrespectful to veterans or current service members, that in no way was my intent.
    Last edited by END_THE_FED; 04-04-2011 at 11:40 PM.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

  16. #16
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    I should have added the qualifier; "unless absolutely necessary", and I should have specified "Combat veterans".

    I think that those in D.C. tend to send our troops into harms way and into other counties when it isn't really necessary to defend our Union. The current actions in Libya are a good example of this. I would also prefer that we close our bases around the world, even in friendly counties like Japan and South Korea, let them defend themselves. I don't really see how a base in South Korea our Japan is defending the U.S.


    I would like it if we could change from a "standing military" back to a "militia type system"
    where most people in the U.S. are expected (but not required) to keep arms (possibly State issued in addition to personal) for them selves. If a situation arises where we need an "army" for our defense it could be comprised of volunteers from the "militia", those that don't volunteer can defend their homes and communities against invasion. When the threat is neutralized, the Army is disbanded until it is needed again.
    However from a practicality standpoint I don't see this happening anytime soon.

    I don't think the Framers intended for us to have a "full time Military".
    Article one Section eight, in part states that; congress has the power .... "To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years"

    If we decide we really need a "full time military" then we should have one by amending the Constitution, not ignoring it.


    I hope no one took any of my comments as disrespectful to veterans or current service members, that in no way was my intent.

    I hear what you saying, and you made good points. Iím not confident that the level of patriotism exists as once did, and to where we could depend on the growing number of liberals, illegal aliens, and radical Islam lovers and so onÖ to take up arms in defense of our nation. You may be right they didnít intend a full time army, but IMO I think itís necessary now in a world where weíre under attack from so many, and so many directions, from across the border, overseas and by those this country has blindly let in with open arms. I think it would disastrous in these times to not have a standing military.
    The framerís may not have intended as you mention, they also didnít intend forced Healthcare, or an imperial presidency as we see unfolding, different topics though!
    In never read any disrespect in your post, only wondered which end of the spectrum you were at.

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