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Thread: Good question a friend asked me about gun crimes?

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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Good question a friend asked me about gun crimes?

    I was explaining to my friend how carrying a handgun actually makes everybody safer, and that most crimes are definitely not committed by people who legally carry.

    She reminded me of Virginia Tech, which was a pretty good point. But when I think about it, Virginia Tech is the only gun crime that I've ever heard of, or read about, where the perp was legally carrying a handgun.

    So my question is, was he even supposed to be carrying? also, are gun crimes by legally carrying citizens actually as low as I'm thinking?
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    Crucial Point

    The term "gun crime" was coined by gun-controllers aka anti-gunners.

    Murder is murder. Aggravated assault is aggravated assault.

    Gun crimes are things like buying a gun for someone you know is not allowed to possess one. Or, carrying one concealed with a permit.

    Otherwise, guns are inanimate objects and cannot commit a crime. They cannot possibly have a causal relationship to a crime.

    By accepting the anti-gunner's terminology--"gun crime"--you will find you have already conceded half the argument--that guns are the problem. And, that crimes committed with a gun are somehow special and deserve special attention just because a gun was used, rather than a knife, bludgeon, or poison. This plays right into the anti-gunner's hands.


    Oh, forgive my manners. Welcome to Open Carry Dot Org!!
    Last edited by Citizen; 03-30-2011 at 01:12 AM.

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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Okay, I realize "gun crimes" probably wasn't the best wording. I was just wondering how many "crimes" are committed using "guns" by people who legally carry on an every day basis.

    It's always been something I've wondered about, because growing up around Detroit, every crime involving a gun that I've ever seen was by felons, gangbangers, etc.

    And since for some reason...a bunch of people think that every day people who carry guns (Teachers, lawyers, etc) will just take out their handgun and randomly start shooting people, I was just wondering if that statistic is as low as I've always thought?

    By no means do I think guns are the problem, I think they're the best solutions to most things, without even having to be un-holstered. I was just asking because a friend of mine kept bugging me about it and I honestly had no idea what to say to her.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mixalis View Post
    I was explaining to my friend how carrying a handgun actually makes everybody safer, and that most crimes are definitely not committed by people who legally carry.

    She reminded me of Virginia Tech, which was a pretty good point. But when I think about it, Virginia Tech is the only gun crime that I've ever heard of, or read about, where the perp was legally carrying a handgun.

    So my question is, was he even supposed to be carrying? also, are gun crimes by legally carrying citizens actually as low as I'm thinking?
    He wasn't legally carrying. Nobody there could legally carry.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    He wasn't legally carrying. Nobody there could legally carry.
    Thank you, I wasn't sure, I know that in some states you can legally carry concealed in Colleges/Universities
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    To the OP , if you want all kinds of information about gun myths , google " gun facts 5.1 " You will have plenty of information then.

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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Thank you, these facts are actually very helpful. Being from Canada my knowledge on the subject isn't very much, so reading the 5.1 will help me answer a lot of questions that I'm asked when I start open carrying In a few weeks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mixalis View Post
    SNIP Okay, I realize "gun crimes" probably wasn't the best wording. I was just wondering how many "crimes" are committed using "guns" by people who legally carry on an every day basis...
    Its still an artificial distinction. Whether .001% of crime is committed by legal carriers, or 10%, disarming good people because of the behavior of bad people is completely unjustifiable.

    At one time there were very few gun laws in this country. I'm betting that most crimes committed with a gun were committed by a person who could legally possess or carry.

    All it means is that: the higher percentage of legally carried guns used to commit crime, the higher the need for non-criminals to be able to defend themselves.

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    VT was (and still is) a legal gun free zone. Also, the perpetrator of the shootings was NOT a holder of a valid CHL (or whatever Virginia calls it, I'm from Oregon so I'm not sure), so ANY concealed carry (even off campus) would have been illegal for him.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Neither has my gun, nor any gun I have ever met, ever committed a crime. Never even heard of one.

    Crimes are committed by people - bad people, criminals. They ignore the more than adequate laws already on the books. Whether the Va Tech shooter had a permit or not is not remotely relevant - he didn't.

    What is a crime IMHO are all of the GFZs - they, at the direction of our legislators and school officials, provide the defenseless targets for those desiring instant notoriety.

    It is in our power to reverse this trend, to take the easy/free opportunity away from these crazed individuals. We do so by responsibly exercising our 2A rights and pushing our elected officials to do the Right thing. The ballot box is a very big hammer.

    It is a battle that we must win - it is for the children ...... and the wives,ourselves and our friends.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 04-01-2011 at 01:41 AM. Reason: added
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Neither has my gun nor any gun I have ever met ever committed a crime. Never even heard of one.
    Ow w w w w!! God, it hurts to try to read that. Much less extract the meaning.

    Do you mind using sentence structure others can actually read?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mixalis View Post
    I was explaining to my friend how carrying a handgun actually makes everybody safer, and that most crimes are definitely not committed by people who legally carry.

    She reminded me of Virginia Tech, which was a pretty good point. But when I think about it, Virginia Tech is the only gun crime that I've ever heard of, or read about, where the perp was legally carrying a handgun.

    So my question is, was he even supposed to be carrying? also, are gun crimes by legally carrying citizens actually as low as I'm thinking?
    No, he was not legally carrying on campus. He violated the law before he shot anyone or at anyone. While he might have legally purchased the firearm, he had reached a mental state where he was no longer in legal possession of a firearm due to mental incompetence.

    And as has been said a "gun" crime does not exist.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Ow w w w w!! God, it hurts to try to read that. Much less extract the meaning.

    Do you mind using sentence structure others can actually read?

    I went back and put the commas in place after my mission was accomplished.

    Made you read it twice. Neener, neener.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I have to agree with Crucial's point here. Bad people who are hell-bent on breaking the law and hurting people are going to find the means, time, and location of doing so no matter what laws are thrown in front of them. If you need some great statistics on gun related violence, I have the book from the DOJ on Violent Encounters for LE training. I promise you, there are some eye-opening stats in there for those who have never been in LE in some manner. Like this common sense item: How many LE encounters are armed encounters? 100% because the officer arrives with HIS firearm.

    Remember, the Fed has the Federal Safe Schools Act that is supposed to prevent things like Virginia Tech from happening. That particular law worked quite well now didn't it?

    It's a clear illustration that the ONLY way to stop violent crime from happening IS an armed responsible public because criminals simply refuse to obey the law, which means the only people gun-control laws actually restrict are the law abiding. Even with a responsible armed public, nothing is 100% guaranteed.

    Our lawmakers Nation-wide know full well that new criminal laws only make it more difficult for the law-abiding to abide by the law. It's all about control and usually those laws won't be applied to those making them. Case in point: Claire McCaskill, Missouri Senator, who billed the US Treasury for business flights on a plane she and her husband owned, she also failed to pay personal property taxes on it claiming that she just found out she had to pay personal property tax on it; it's called tax evasion and fraud folks. I guess she thinks we're all too stupid to know she's a 4th Generation Missourian and that she's lived here most of if not her entire life. BTW, she's being allowed to pay it and isn't being charged criminally like she should be.

    Why is that relevant? It illustrates that people with the intent will break the law in light of knowing it's illegal.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 04-01-2011 at 10:57 AM.

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    Regular Member DevinWKuska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mixalis View Post
    I was explaining to my friend how carrying a handgun actually makes everybody safer, and that most crimes are definitely not committed by people who legally carry.

    She reminded me of Virginia Tech, which was a pretty good point. But when I think about it, Virginia Tech is the only gun crime that I've ever heard of, or read about, where the perp was legally carrying a handgun.

    So my question is, was he even supposed to be carrying? also, are gun crimes by legally carrying citizens actually as low as I'm thinking?
    The shooting of the AZ senator ring a bell? Both of his firearms were purchased legally, as well as legally possesing hi-cap mags. I would also like to point out that someone at the shooting WAS armed and was just to chicken s*** to draw and fire! Dont carry if your not up to pulling the trigger when the chips are down!
    "So there I was between a rock and a hard place, when it hit me... What am I doing on this side of the rock?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by DevinWKuska View Post
    The shooting of the AZ senator ring a bell? Both of his firearms were purchased legally, as well as legally possesing hi-cap mags. I would also like to point out that someone at the shooting WAS armed and was just to chicken s*** to draw and fire! Dont carry if your not up to pulling the trigger when the chips are down!
    Clearly you are unaware about which you speak
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevinWKuska View Post
    The shooting of the AZ senator ring a bell? Both of his firearms were purchased legally, as well as legally possesing hi-cap mags. I would also like to point out that someone at the shooting WAS armed and was just to chicken s*** to draw and fire! Dont carry if your not up to pulling the trigger when the chips are down!
    That is a bit harsh I think.

    At least one gentleman was armed and elected not to shoot. Good thing too because the person that had the gun then was another good guy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevinWKuska View Post
    The shooting of the AZ senator ring a bell? Both of his firearms were purchased legally, as well as legally possesing hi-cap mags. I would also like to point out that someone at the shooting WAS armed and was just to chicken s*** to draw and fire! Dont carry if your not up to pulling the trigger when the chips are down!
    I, for one, don't hear any bell. Jared Loughner was already an "habitual user of drugs" when he purchased the guns; therefore they were not purchased legally; that's one of the questions on the Form 4473.

    The other armed person was too far from the action - if I recall correctly he was well inside the supermarket - and by the time he got outside to see what was going on, it was over and he did the correct thing by keeping his weapon holstered.

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevinWKuska View Post
    The shooting of the AZ senator ring a bell? Both of his firearms were purchased legally, as well as legally possesing hi-cap mags. I would also like to point out that someone at the shooting WAS armed and was just to chicken s*** to draw and fire! Dont carry if your not up to pulling the trigger when the chips are down!

    No, Both AZ senators are unwounded. Actually dipwad lied on his 4473's so his firearms were not bought legally. It was that his Two disqualifiers had not been taken notice of "Officially" and therefore did not show up in the NCIS/AzCIS records check.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmbushBug View Post
    I, for one, don't hear any bell. Jared Loughner was already an "habitual user of drugs" when he purchased the guns; therefore they were not purchased legally; that's one of the questions on the Form 4473.

    The other armed person was too far from the action - if I recall correctly he was well inside the supermarket - and by the time he got outside to see what was going on, it was over and he did the correct thing by keeping his weapon holstered.
    And folks willing to unlawfully shoot a congressman, a judge, and others, ain't going to follow paperwork laws!

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    Seung-hui Cho, did carry in a "gun free" zone. terrorist like him, look for places where people can not defend themselves.
    yes, some firearms used in crimes are purchased legally. just like the fact that most cars used to drive there and/or are used in a crime are purchased legally. but i think the majority of cars are never used in a crime
    i was going to give you some sites that showed armed citizens saving lives. the Appalachian law school comes up a lot. there were just too many. just do a google search

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    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mixalis View Post
    I was explaining to my friend how carrying a handgun actually makes everybody safer, and that most crimes are definitely not committed by people who legally carry.

    She reminded me of Virginia Tech, which was a pretty good point. But when I think about it, Virginia Tech is the only gun crime that I've ever heard of, or read about, where the perp was legally carrying a handgun.

    So my question is, was he even supposed to be carrying? also, are gun crimes by legally carrying citizens actually as low as I'm thinking?
    I beg to differ that he was carrying it legally. The minute he set out to do harm with it, he was carrying illegally.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I'm sort of surprised that Grapeshot hasn't corrected the claims made as to the "legality" of Cho's guns on VT's campus...

    Under VA law, there are no prohibitions against carrying on campus--only in the buildings.

    There is a provision in the VA Statute for colleges and universities to have ADMINISTRATIVE prohibitions on their property, but carrying on a VA college campus is not "illegal". There would have to be a statutory prohibition on campus carry for it to be illegal, and there is no such statute in VA...

    At least that is the way I understand the laws in VA.

    If some of more astute VA members know how to better explain this, or I am incorrect, please enlighten us.

    What is particularly interesting in the case of the VT shooting is that up until just 9 months before the incident there was NO administrative prohibition against possessing a firearm on campus.

    It might be administratively prohibited, and therefore you can be kicked out of school, or asked to leave the campus if you're a visitor, but it's not a statutory prohibition...

    I hate to be a nit picker, but there is a BIG difference between "legal" and "administrative".

    And technically, since state-run colleges and universities are "state property", they SHOULD be under VA's preemption law, but the politically correct education lobby carved out an exemption for themselves.

    Hopefully, the lawsuit against GMU on this very issue will restore to the fine people of VA the same sort of freedom that citizens of Utah have when visiting institutions of higher learning...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 04-02-2011 at 11:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    SNIP Hopefully, the lawsuit against GMU on this very issue will restore to the fine people of VA the same sort of freedom that citizens of Utah have when visiting institutions of higher learning...
    GMU won the lawsuit.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ght=DiGiacinto

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The shooter at Va Tech was said to have purchased his guns legally - in accordance with the system. IMO he did NOT as he lied on his application and lack of reporting the restriction left the door wide open for him. There were many other failures in the breakdown - some if which, notably at the university level, still exist i.e rendering people defenseless.

    The understanding of the issue of guns on campuses in Virginia is much like peeling an onion - pull off one layer only to find another.

    State preemption (§ 15.2-915) refers narrowly to localities.
    http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/15.2-915.HTM

    More careful examination determined that the general public was not restricted from carrying guns on most campuses outside of buildings if they are public schools or accept public funds. The only two colleges that had been granted authority under the Administrative Code to totally ban guns where VCU and Geo. Mason.

    That all changed with the decision issued by the Va. Supreme Court in the Geo. Mason case mention by Citizen. Reaffirmed was a university's ability to restrict guns anywhere by students and staff - no legal penalty is directly tied to this though. Students may be sanctioned (expelled) and staff can be fired at the determination of the school.

    The general public was NOT addressed in the Va.Sup.Ct. decision leaving intact the right to carry on the grounds by the non-affiliated persons of most (almost all) university/colleges. The only schools not so effected would be private colleges who do not accept state funds - are there any? Liberty Univ. maybe? As a benefit the administrative authority granted for VCU and GMU to ban the general public from carrying on the grounds is now defeated/abolished.

    This constitutes my understanding of where we are on this issue. There are enough other layers/details to make your eyes water as you peel this onion. One of the things being looked at is whether a student in their legal domicile can forbidden weapons under recent SCOTUS decisions and other potentially applicable laws, but that is a matter for another thread.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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