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Thread: borrowing a gun

  1. #1
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    borrowing a gun

    I need some advice about some gun laws. I used to live in MI but now have moved to Oh for job purposes. My dad and I are avid hunters/shooters and often borrow guns from each other. Can we still do this now that we are living in different states? I've read some stuff on the web lately that is very, very confusing. All kinds of forums disscussing things like state to state gun sales and gifting guns to family members. I'm not giving or selling a handgun/shotgun/rifle to my dad, just letting him borrow them. we've always done this. He has one of my rifles right now and I have a shotgun of his. On another forum the other day someone told me that legally we have to 'transfer' ownership with an FFL. I don't understand and can't really find any concrete facts. Why would I 'transfer' my gun to my dad? It's mine not his, I'll be getting it back. Plus doesn't that cost money to do?? Is this really a law? What's the world coming to? If anyone knows the facts I'd me happy to hear them. I was just about to lend my dad a pistol for CC for him to try out to see if he is interested in buying one of his own, seems perfectly legal to do. Or isn't it?

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    the borrowing of firearms only applies to handguns
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    I'm still confused, you're saying we can only borrow handguns from one another? Because we live in different states? You'll have to specify.

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    no, you can borrow rifles without a CPL. do you have an ohio license to carry? if so you can borrow a handgun, if not, you can only borrow long guns in michigan. michigan honors ohio license to carry.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 03-31-2011 at 09:06 AM.
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    I currently do not have CC permit in OH. My dad has one in MI. So he can borrow a handgun from me? Along with long guns? And I can only borrow long guns from him but no handguns? Thanks for your patience, just trying to understand all this.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonic View Post
    I currently do not have CC permit in OH. My dad has one in MI. So he can borrow a handgun from me? Along with long guns? And I can only borrow long guns from him but no handguns? Thanks for your patience, just trying to understand all this.
    In your situation, the law when you are in MI is you can borrow your dads long guns; he can borrow all you guns.
    I don't know Ohio law for when your in Ohio.
    Last edited by Golden Eagle; 03-31-2011 at 10:22 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonic View Post
    I currently do not have CC permit in OH. My dad has one in MI. So he can borrow a handgun from me? Along with long guns? And I can only borrow long guns from him but no handguns? Thanks for your patience, just trying to understand all this.
    long guns are perfectly fine.

    if he has a michigan cpl,he can borrow your handguns,since you do not have an ohio permit,you may not borrow any handguns in this state,i have no idea if you can borrow handguns in ohio,for that to be answered you'd wanna hit up the ohio guys.
    Last edited by lil_freak_66; 03-31-2011 at 10:15 AM.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    Regular Member Golden Eagle's Avatar
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    Last edited by Golden Eagle; 03-31-2011 at 10:25 AM.
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    If your handgun comes to Michigan, it has to be registered in Michigan before (10 days I think?). He can only borrow a registered handgun, and only if he has a CPL. I dont know anything about Ohio laws, except that Im not to too fond of your speed limits, ours are slow enough already.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 03-31-2011 at 10:22 AM.

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    I feel like I'm getting conflicting answers here. One person states the as long as my dad has a Michigan cpl he can borrow one of my handguns from Ohio. Another says he can only use the handgun if he registers it within 10 days. Why would HE register MY handgun, I don't need a permit or registration to legally own it in Ohio. If he registers my handgun, wouldn't it legally become his and not mine? Also, I heard that state to state ownership transfers require a 3rd party (FFL). If I bring a handgun to MI can't I use it legally and let my dad use it as well? What if we're just at the range or plinking in the back woods? What if I accidentally leave it at his house? We lend guns to each other all the time (long guns) but the handgun thing has me confused because of the fact that MI requires registration.
    So, if I drive over to my folks, give my dad a pistol and say get it back to me the next time you visit, is that legal? And, can he use that pistol for CC????

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    I really wish that I had the cite handy, I do my best with those, but I do know that if a gun comes into the state, the .gov wants it registered. I believe the requirement is that it be done within 10 days. If your dad registers it, then yes, its his gun. I dont think you need to go through an FFL to transfer it to a family member, but truthfully, I dont know, and won't state that as a fact. If you are visiting the state for a couple days, then no, it doesn't need to be registered, and you can go shooting with him all you want. If you leave it with him for more than the 10 days, then I think there is a problem.

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    Regular Member Golden Eagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I really wish that I had the cite handy, I do my best with those, but I do know that if a gun comes into the state, the .gov wants it registered. I believe the requirement is that it be done within 10 days. If your dad registers it, then yes, its his gun. I dont think you need to go through an FFL to transfer it to a family member, but truthfully, I dont know, and won't state that as a fact. If you are visiting the state for a couple days, then no, it doesn't need to be registered, and you can go shooting with him all you want. If you leave it with him for more than the 10 days, then I think there is a problem.
    Hold on this is more complex... forgot OH does not have pistol registered I'm looking right now too... what is the law that lets a cpl holder borrow a pistol?
    Last edited by Golden Eagle; 03-31-2011 at 12:06 PM.
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    § 922. Unlawful acts

    This may help?
    Section 5,B

    Except that this paragraph shall not apply to
    (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
    (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...2----000-.html

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    no, that's federal law. michigan law addresses this... somewhere. and hence, preempts federal in this regard.
    here's the cite everyone is looking for:
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(1xw...28.432.amended

    also, from msp website:
    3. Is it okay if I loan my pistol to a friend?

    MCL 28.432 An individual can carry, possess, use or transport a pistol belonging to another individual, if the pistol is properly licensed and inspected under the Act, and the individual carrying, possessing, using or transporting the pistol has obtained a license to carry a pistol concealed permit from Michigan
    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...0953--,00.html
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 03-31-2011 at 12:54 PM.
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  15. #15
    Regular Member Golden Eagle's Avatar
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    I think this is now it.
    ***** 28.432 THIS SECTION IS AMENDED EFFECTIVE FEBRUARY 15, 2011: See 28.432.amended *****

    28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; amendatory act as “Janet Kukuk act”.
    Sec. 12.

    (1) Section 2 does not apply to any of the following:

    ........

    (i) An individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting a pistol belonging to another individual, if the other individual's possession of the pistol is authorized by law and the individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting the pistol has obtained a license under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or is exempt from licensure as provided in section 12a.
    I underlined and wonder would that be MI's or any law?
    Last edited by Golden Eagle; 03-31-2011 at 01:06 PM. Reason: im too slow:)
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    no, that's federal law. michigan law addresses this... somewhere. and hence, preempts federal in this regard.
    here's the cite everyone is looking for:
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(1xw...28.432.amended

    also, from msp website:
    3. Is it okay if I loan my pistol to a friend?

    MCL 28.432 An individual can carry, possess, use or transport a pistol belonging to another individual, if the pistol is properly licensed and inspected under the Act, and the individual carrying, possessing, using or transporting the pistol has obtained a license to carry a pistol concealed permit from Michigan
    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...0953--,00.html
    Yes it is Federal Law,
    I think, MCL 28.432 refers to transporting within the state of Michigan, Not across state Lines.

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    also, from msp website:
    3. Is it okay if I loan my pistol to a friend?

    MCL 28.432 An individual can carry, possess, use or transport a pistol belonging to another individual, if the pistol is properly licensed and inspected under the Act, and the individual carrying, possessing, using or transporting the pistol has obtained a license to carry a pistol concealed permit from Michigan
    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...0953--,00.html[/QUOTE]


    So what I take from this is that a MI resident with a cpl can borrow another's pistol and carry it, so long as the pistol is properly and legally owned. But, I'm assuming that this is talking about a pistol that is owned by another MI resident.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gort View Post
    This may help?
    Section 5,B

    Except that this paragraph shall not apply to
    (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
    (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...2----000-.html
    What are 'lawful sporting purposes'?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonic View Post
    What are 'lawful sporting purposes'?
    Yes, MCL 28.432 For Michigan Residents. Gun Must Be Licensed, Registered, To Loan.

    You are from Ohio, Loaning your gun to a CPL holder here in Michigan

    Michigan Firearms Act Section 28.442
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(bsm...ame=mcl-28-422
    (8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.
    (b) The individual is in possession of the license described in subdivision (a).

    There may be a time limit on how long this gun can remain in Michigan, 30 days comes to mind.

    Transportation across State Lines
    Federal 922. Unlawful acts Except that this paragraph shall not apply to
    (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
    (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes
    Notice the Wording. Temporary, sporting purposes.
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...2----000-.html

    Sporting Purposes could be Target shooting etc, Not defined.

    Make the choice of your own, You are the one who must be confident in your decision.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    If your handgun comes to Michigan, it has to be registered in Michigan before (10 days I think?). He can only borrow a registered handgun, and only if he has a CPL. I dont know anything about Ohio laws, except that Im not to too fond of your speed limits, ours are slow enough already.
    No his dad can borrow any lawful handgun. It doesn't have to be registered in Michigan.
    Special offer - buy a copy of "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" and get a free copy of "Bond of Unseen Blood" Go to http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  21. #21
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    Whats the time limit, IIRC, its either 10 or 30 days if the gun is to stay here, and thats one option on the table, he wants to be able to leave it here on occasion.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    no, that's federal law. michigan law addresses this... somewhere. and hence, preempts federal in this regard.
    here's the cite everyone is looking for:
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(1xw...28.432.amended

    also, from msp website:
    3. Is it okay if I loan my pistol to a friend?

    MCL 28.432 An individual can carry, possess, use or transport a pistol belonging to another individual, if the pistol is properly licensed and inspected under the Act, and the individual carrying, possessing, using or transporting the pistol has obtained a license to carry a pistol concealed permit from Michigan
    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...0953--,00.html
    Your info is Old.

    New statute:

    28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; amendatory act as “Janet Kukuk act”.
    Sec. 12.
    (1) Section 2 does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A police or correctional agency of the United States or of this state or any subdivision of this state.
    (b) The United States army, air force, navy, or marine corps.
    (c) An organization authorized by law to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state.
    (d) The national guard, armed forces reserves, or other duly authorized military organization.
    (e) A member of an entity or organization described in subdivisions (a) through (d) for a pistol while engaged in the course of his or her duties with that entity or while going to or returning from those duties.
    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.
    (g) The regular and ordinary transportation of a pistol as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms or a licensed dealer.
    (h) Purchasing, owning, carrying, possessing, using, or transporting an antique firearm. As used in this subdivision, "antique firearm" means that term as defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.
    (i) An individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting a pistol belonging to another individual, if the other individual's possession of the pistol is authorized by law and the individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting the pistol has obtained a license under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or is exempt from licensure as provided in section 12a.
    (2) The amendatory act that added subsection (1)(h) shall be known and may be cited as the "Janet Kukuk act".
    Last edited by Venator; 03-31-2011 at 09:01 PM.
    Special offer - buy a copy of "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" and get a free copy of "Bond of Unseen Blood" Go to http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  23. #23
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonic View Post
    also, from msp website:
    3. Is it okay if I loan my pistol to a friend?

    MCL 28.432 An individual can carry, possess, use or transport a pistol belonging to another individual, if the pistol is properly licensed and inspected under the Act, and the individual carrying, possessing, using or transporting the pistol has obtained a license to carry a pistol concealed permit from Michigan
    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...0953--,00.html

    So what I take from this is that a MI resident with a cpl can borrow another's pistol and carry it, so long as the pistol is properly and legally owned. But, I'm assuming that this is talking about a pistol that is owned by another MI resident.[/QUOTE]

    No, your dad can carry anyones lawfully possesses pistol.
    28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; amendatory act as “Janet Kukuk act”.

    (i) An individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting a pistol belonging to another individual, if the other individual's possession of the pistol is authorized by law and the individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting the pistol has obtained a license under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or is exempt from licensure as provided in section 12a.
    Special offer - buy a copy of "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" and get a free copy of "Bond of Unseen Blood" Go to http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  24. #24
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    I don't have the cite but from what I remember reading it's 30 days.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  25. #25
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    There is no time limit that a CPL holder may borrow somebody else's gun.

    MCL 28.422 details the requirements for getting a License to Purchase/Possess and for registering the pistol including the time frames involved.

    28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours.

    Sec. 2.
    MCL 28.432 Exempts a MI CPL holder who is borrowing a legally owned firearm from another person from 28.422 in it's entirety.

    (1) Section 2 does not apply to any of the following:

    (i) An individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting a pistol belonging to another individual, if the other individual's possession of the pistol is authorized by law and the individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting the pistol has obtained a license under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or is exempt from licensure as provided in section 12a.
    If he leaves a pistol here I believe that may fall under the Feds defintion of an interstate transfer and that could get people in both states in big trouble.

    Bronson
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