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Thread: CADL v MOC court case transcripts

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    CADL v MOC court case transcripts


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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    what i have gathered from this is that we have a world class legal team. the guys are brilliant and well-spoken.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    2 very telling portions of the transcripts. Kudos to our lawyer for getting these question answered.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dean Questions, Lance Answers
    Q. Well, actually I'm going to move on. Mr. Werner, you mentioned that concealed carry is permitted in the library?

    A. Yes.

    Q. Is concealed carry permitted in schools?

    A. No.

    Q. Now, you signed an affidavit in this case. You caused this action to be brought in this court. You're aware that you are seeking for the Court to declare that the CADL facilities are school property, are you not?

    A. Yes.

    Q. Well, if they are declared school property ‐‐

    A. There will be no concealed carry at CADL.

    Q. So isn't it your ‐‐ your objective isn't really a concern about open carry but it's a concern about anybody who has a firearm in CADL facilities?

    A. My concern is about safety and it's about open carry in the library. That's why we're here today.

    Q. Mr. Werner, is it your goal to prohibit those who are concealed pistol licensees from entering CADL facilities with firearms?

    A. I guess so. I guess ‐‐ I guess that's where we're at, yes.

    Q. So if it was up to you, nobody with a firearm would set foot in the CADL facilities?

    A. Yep.

    Q. Is there any other places you think that nobody should go with a firearm?


    Second question and answer...


    Q. Okay. Let me ask you this, I think you mentioned one of the reasons why you were providing shadow security is because you don't know how patrons will react?

    A. That's correct.

    Q. Well, what is it you're presuming will happen with patrons that causes some concern?

    A. I'm concerned that a patron will attack one of the guys with the guns.

    Q. So you're concerned ‐‐ I mean, you're a lawyer. Wouldn't that be an assault or a battery on the part of the patron?

    A. I'm concerned that the patron will attack the person with the gun and the person with the gun will shoot the patron.

    Q. I'm trying to understand why you believe the person ‐‐ the first patron, the one that's not carrying a firearm, or presumably isn't carrying a firearm, would be attacking someone with a gun?

    A. We have a lot of ‐‐ well, we have some patrons that have issues with their personality that make them highly unpredictable and it's hard to tell how they're going to react. It could be a concerned parent. I don't know. We definitely have patrons with some personality issues, though.

    Q. Well, let's get into that. When you say they have personality issues, is that one of the reasons you provide security at the CADL facilities because some of the patrons have personality issues?

    A. I provide security at the CADL facility to maintain a safe environment for everybody. It's not specifically for any one reason. It's just to maintain a safe environment for everyone.

    Q. Is that one of the reasons?

    A. Yeah. I think it is a reason. It's good to have people on hand.

    Q. So you have security there because some of the patrons who may be unarmed have some personalty issues, is what you're saying?

    A. Yes.

    Q. Okay. And you also mentioned one of the other reasons that you provide shadow security because you don't know how the employees will react.

    A. That's right.

    Q. Well, do you have concerns? I mean, have you ever talked to your employees and said, if a man comes in with a gun don't tackle him?

    A. My employees are terrified and it's hard to say. I've talked to them, yes, but it's hard to figure out how they're going to react in a situation. I had ‐‐ like I said, I had an employee that had a melt down. I don't know how people are going to react. They know what's appropriate and they need to stay away, but, again, you put somebody in a tense situation, it's hard to tell how they're going to react.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    I can't wait for the appeal

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    the court has to make the final decision before we can appeal
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    the court has to make the final decision before we can appeal
    We have a judicial system that gives us an "impartial judge". We might win in the circuit court (yeah right)
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    We have a judicial system that gives us an "impartial judge". We might win in the circuit court (yeah right)
    Please don't refer to it as the "judicial" system.
    There has been little justice for the common man for many years. That's why I only refer to it as the "legal" system; little justice or ethics...but..."it's legal".

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Angry I don't know about you but I'm mad as hell & I'm not going to take this crap any more

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    We have a judicial system that gives us an "impartial judge". We might win in the circuit court (yeah right)
    I read the complete transcript & it is clear this is a Kangaroo trial with a judge who doesn't give a damn about what the law says. I hope after a judges review panel goes through her actions in this case, that she is removed from the bench and barred from practicing law in MI FOREVER! See folks this is how fascists work, if we don't like the laws passed by the elected officials of the "little people" we just find a corrupt judge and under-mine the people's law and replace it with our own....he he he he....how dare the serfs expect us to obey their laws!

    I don't know about you but I'm mad as hell & I'm not going to take this crap any more!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGIY5Vyj4YM
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 04-01-2011 at 03:18 PM. Reason: add link
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    At least they are consistent.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    Please don't refer to it as the "judicial" system.
    There has been little justice for the common man for many years. That's why I only refer to it as the "legal" system; little justice or ethics...but..."it's legal".
    Sadly Q,

    WARCHILD is spot on here.

    The more I see of our legal system the more I become convinced it is an ILLEGAL system designed to keep the commoners in their place while furthering agendas of the elites & power mongers... my heart breaks for the lack of liberty in what was once the greatest beacon of freedom for the world to see: The United States of America.
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 04-01-2011 at 03:45 PM. Reason: edit
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    The Court :
    "There's no reason to
    2 carry a weapon in the library. Hopefully ‐‐
    3 hopefully we don't have another 9/11. We don't
    4 need ‐‐ we don't have terrorism in our libraries.
    5 Maybe there will come a time in this country we need
    6 weapons in a library and I'll be singing a different
    7 tune."

    Bill of rights, or bill of needs?
    Last edited by stainless1911; 04-01-2011 at 04:56 PM.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    the court has to make the final decision before we can appeal
    Is there really any doubt as to how it is going to play out at this level?

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    Is there really any doubt as to how it is going to play out at this level?
    one can only hope that this activist judge has a little more time to do her homework than she did before the first hearing. i'm not holding my breath though.

    one thing... it's abundantly clear that warner is extremely ignorant of the difference between MOC and OCDO and also of forums and blogs.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Regular Member Michigun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    Please don't refer to it as the "judicial" system.
    There has been little justice for the common man for many years. That's why I only refer to it as the "legal" system; little justice or ethics...but..."it's legal".
    I usually call it the "just-us" system.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    one can only hope that this activist judge has a little more time to do her homework than she did before the first hearing. i'm not holding my breath though.

    one thing... it's abundantly clear that warner is extremely ignorant of the difference between MOC and OCDO and also of forums and blogs.
    I'm with you, on both parts.

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    It is amazing how a "library law specialist" with a masters degree can be so ignorant when it comes to firearm law in relation to libraries.

    Most of the 20 or so open carry advocates that were in attendance are better versed in gun law than either Mr Werner or the Judge.

    There was a collective sigh when the judge said this:

    THE COURT: But the state of the law is we
    do not have open weapons in our schools, and it is my
    understanding that this downtown Lansing branch is
    owned by the Lansing School District, it is leased to
    the library to assist in education of students and,
    therefore, it is part and parcel to our schools as an
    extension of their own libraries and I cannot
    separate it out, therefore, from our schools, and to
    listen to you would be to accept that I should allow
    weapons, guns, open guns, in the corridors of our
    schools, and that I cannot abide by, sir.
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 04-02-2011 at 02:06 PM.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    We have a judicial system that gives us an "impartial judge". We might win in the circuit court (yeah right)
    If we do get a judge without an unconstitutional agenda and understands the law and our rights,no problem! Judges and lawyers are still people,able to mess up,according to what they understand.CADL's side and the judge don't understand the law according to their testimony.We'll just have to keep going until we get someone that does know and understand the law.Just because they went to school doesn't mean they "Get It".Thats why discussions in court are called "Arguments" and the more vague,complicated the laws are written the more arguing there's going to be! Thats where we are at! The people are responsible for electing boobs,who write complicated and vague laws,that have to be argued about in court by some(CADL,the judge) that don't GET IT!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    It is amazing how a "library law specialist" with a masters degree can be so ignorant when it comes to firearm law in relation to libraries.

    Most of the 20 or so open carry advocates that were in attendance are better versed in gun law than either Mr Werner or the Judge.

    There was a collective sigh when the judge said this:

    Unless he's saving it for later, I dont know why Dean didn't say something, I know he knows, I've spoken to him about this specific part of the law myself.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Unless he's saving it for later, I dont know why Dean didn't say something, I know he knows, I've spoken to him about this specific part of the law myself.
    When a judge makes a ruling that is not the time to argue...
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Ok, but I was reading the transcripts, and on a couple of occasions 237 and or schools came up, I was waiting for him to bring up the exemption for CPL holders, and wondered why he didn't.

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    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Ok, but I was reading the transcripts, and on a couple of occasions 237 and or schools came up, I was waiting for him to bring up the exemption for CPL holders, and wondered why he didn't.
    Thats because the answers from Werner consisted of "DUH,WHAT?" and the judge overlooked his lack of knowledge,where Deans facts were disregarded outright! It was beating a dead horse in it's simplest form! I'm sure that day in court could have been skipped altogether except for getting it on the record for the next day in court.The hope of upholding the law was nill once Werner started talking and the judge went along.I'm praying and expecting truth to eventualy win! It always does! CARRY ON MEN!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    It will be worth it in the end, especially if we can get a case law on the schools issue, and add to the definitions and penalties of the preemption law.

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    They are all worried about a spontaneous discharge that might hurt someone. Think about it this way, have you ever looked down a tube, a drinking straw, Christmas paper, aluminum foil tube, whatever. How much of the room can you see through that tube? Not much, that's about the same chance you have of being struck by an un-aimed. bullet

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    I read the complete transcript & it is clear this is a Kangaroo trial with a judge who doesn't give a damn about what the law says. I hope after a judges review panel goes through her actions in this case, that she is removed from the bench and barred from practicing law in MI FOREVER! See folks this is how fascists work, if we don't like the laws passed by the elected officials of the "little people" we just find a corrupt judge and under-mine the people's law and replace it with our own....he he he he....how dare the serfs expect us to obey their laws!

    I don't know about you but I'm mad as hell & I'm not going to take this crap any more!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGIY5Vyj4YM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi6XV...eature=related
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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