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Thread: I'm in a debate with a cop

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    I'm in a debate with a cop

    Over the Legality of someone at the age of 19 carrying a firearm in New Mexico.

    My reference was New Mexico State Statute 30-7-2.2 Which states anyone over the age of 19 may possess a firearm: http://www.conwaygreene.com/nmsu/lpe...main-h.htm&2.0

    They then send me this as a retort. the Federal laws pertaining to Handguns/Rifles: http://www.nraila.org/gunlaws/federal/read.aspx?id=60

    To me the above link states that anyone under 21 can't buy a handgun from a federally licensed dealer, but not about carrying/possessing a handgun.

    Can anyone clarify who is in the right and wrong here? Need the facts on this one...

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    can not speak on NM laws and IANAL, but with a quick search i found this from wiki ( need to verify)

    Sales between individuals


    • Federal law allows the sale of a long gun or a handgun between private parties of the same state as long as the purchaser is 18 years of age. An individual who does not possess a federal firearms license may not sell a modern firearm to a resident of another state without first transferring the firearm to a dealer in the purchaser's state.[8] Firearms received by bequest or intestate succession are exempt from those sections of the law which forbid the transfer, sale, delivery or transportation of firearms into a state other than the transferor's state of residence.[8] Likewise, antique firearms are exempt from these sections of the law in most states. (Antique firearms are defined as those manufactured pre-1899 by US federal law, or modern replicas thereof that do not use cartridges. State law definitions on antique firearms vary considerably from state to state.)

    there are several threads on this subject in this site and also lots on anti rights sites on the mis-named "gun show loop hole" ( it is actually " rights of the citizens" )

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    You are right regarding Federal Law. 18-20 year olds can not buy from a FFL, but can by from private parties according to Federal Law. I have no idea about NM laws though.

    In NC, several 18-20s OC regularly.
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    Based on Federal law, your cop friend is wrong. A 18 yr old can own, possess and carry a long gun.

    Based on this: http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NMSL.pdf

    There is no NM law that would prevent a 19 year old from owning, possessing, and carrying a long gun.
    The NM law specifically refers to pistols. Remember, in this country, laws tell us what we can't do. If the law is silent on something, then it is legal.

    This is just another example of why you should never take a cop's word about what is legal and what is illegal. Most don't know the law.

    Don

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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Not sure about NM, but in Michigan, you can't buy a handgun until you're 21. BUT, if you're over 18, and buy one from a friend, private dealer, or somebody gives it to you as a gift, it's perfectly legal to own, and carry (open of course). I would think the laws are the same in NM, the law looks like it's the same.
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    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    I think the LEO(as are most people) about the 21 thing,most states allow under 21 to own handguns,but they must be done through private transfers.
    Most people(at least,this is my view) read/hear the "under 21 cannot buy handguns from a dealer"(or are just not told about the "from a dealer portion") and only end up remembering "under 21 cannot buy handguns"

    the question is,does NM allow private handgun transfers,do they have a 21 minimum age for private transfers? if they allow private transfers and the law allows for -21 to buy handguns,then you should be good to go.

    18 here,and i have handguns legally,but thats on the opposite side of the country from you.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    You could do worse than to point your friend here.
    http://www.opencarry.org/nm.html

    You can lead him to the water, but if he doesn't choose to drink at least you tried.
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    Thanks for all the info and support guys. The thing I'm worried about is being pulled over by Her or one of the cops on her shift. (She is the Sergeant.) She seems pretty set in her ways saying her experience in the field trumps whatever I have to say, even though I had documentation so prove it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buniak383 View Post
    Over the Legality of someone at the age of 19 carrying a firearm in New Mexico.

    My reference was New Mexico State Statute 30-7-2.2 Which states anyone over the age of 19 may possess a firearm: http://www.conwaygreene.com/nmsu/lpe...main-h.htm&2.0

    They then send me this as a retort. the Federal laws pertaining to Handguns/Rifles: http://www.nraila.org/gunlaws/federal/read.aspx?id=60

    To me the above link states that anyone under 21 can't buy a handgun from a federally licensed dealer, but not about carrying/possessing a handgun.

    Can anyone clarify who is in the right and wrong here? Need the facts on this one...
    Apples and Oranges....

    yep, someone 19 or older CAN possess/carry but in order to PURCHASE from an FFL they must be 21 or older!

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    I think I'm going to need to get a printer. Going to print out all the information you guys have given me and anything else I can find. Next time I see her, I'll have physical evidence to prove what I'm saying is correct.

    Instead of this time where it was just going back and forth saying things that sounded like they were quoted from an official document. (This was over the phone. I reference state statute and what not, but she said her experience made her more knowledgeable and therefore she was right)....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buniak383 View Post
    Over the Legality of someone at the age of 19 carrying a firearm in New Mexico.

    My reference was New Mexico State Statute 30-7-2.2 Which states anyone over the age of 19 may possess a firearm: http://www.conwaygreene.com/nmsu/lpe...main-h.htm&2.0

    They then send me this as a retort. the Federal laws pertaining to Handguns/Rifles: http://www.nraila.org/gunlaws/federal/read.aspx?id=60

    To me the above link states that anyone under 21 can't buy a handgun from a federally licensed dealer, but not about carrying/possessing a handgun.

    Can anyone clarify who is in the right and wrong here? Need the facts on this one...
    Do NOT rely on the NRAILA for current and correct representations of gun law. They admit that what they post for the law is skewed based on their political agenda and will not be corrected. As a matter of fact, when I pointed out the errors the posted in regards to Alabama law, I was asked if I was a member. When I said no, I was informed that what I had to say would be ignored.

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    Definitely good to know! Thanks eye95.

    Also I found this during my search, I found the GCA of 1968. I was wondering if this was still the standard, since it is from 1968. don't know if it's been updated or amended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sec 922 Unlawful acts, subsection x
    (x) (1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile:

    (A) a handgun;or

    (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

    (2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess:

    (A) a handgun;or

    (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
    ...
    (5) For purposes of this subsection, the term "juvenile" means a person who is less than 18 years of age.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Never debate with a cop! Or a judge, or the guy next door! Find the law, or accumulate enough evidence that there is no law against the subject, and present it to them as fact.

    Debate used to be just that - te give and take of facts supporting a partuicular point of view. Nowadays it is the expression of emotions and is decided by who shouts loudest and longest. Facts, on the other hand, speak for themselves without needing to have voices raised.

    Even better is to ask the other person to accumulate facts supporting their point of view. If they cannot, they are expressing emotions, not reciting facts.

    stay safe.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Never debate with a cop! Or a judge, or the guy next door! Find the law, or accumulate enough evidence that there is no law against the subject, and present it to them as fact.

    Debate used to be just that - te give and take of facts supporting a partuicular point of view. Nowadays it is the expression of emotions and is decided by who shouts loudest and longest. Facts, on the other hand, speak for themselves without needing to have voices raised.

    Even better is to ask the other person to accumulate facts supporting their point of view. If they cannot, they are expressing emotions, not reciting facts.

    stay safe.
    +1

    I have a Cop friend who insists everyone in U.S. has to carry I.D. and he'll cite ya for it if not. I just stopped trying, no matter what facts you presented he insists he's right. I still rib him about it though.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Do NOT rely on the NRAILA for current and correct representations of gun law. They admit that what they post for the law is skewed based on their political agenda and will not be corrected. As a matter of fact, when I pointed out the errors the posted in regards to Alabama law, I was asked if I was a member. When I said no, I was informed that what I had to say would be ignored.
    Should have pulled their chain and said "I was until just now".
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

    Politicians should serve two terms, one in office and one in prison.(borrowed from RioKid)

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldCurlyWolf View Post
    Should have pulled their chain and said "I was until just now".
    I wish I'd thought of that.

    I quit the NRA when I tired of their incessant demands for more money. Quitting was the only way to shut them up. At that, it took several months for the mailings to slow to a steady trickle.

  17. #17
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Here is the NRA/ILA pfd on NM laws. since this is the site that the LEO cites than it should work. Note everything is in the first chapter.

    http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NMSL.pdf

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buniak383 View Post
    Thanks for all the info and support guys. The thing I'm worried about is being pulled over by Her or one of the cops on her shift. (She is the Sergeant.) She seems pretty set in her ways saying her experience in the field trumps whatever I have to say, even though I had documentation so prove it.
    Her "experience" in no way trumps the laws of your state. If she oversteps her bounds and acts outside of the law and/or violates same under the color of law, burn her butt. This is something that should be nipped in the bud before it grows.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buniak383 View Post
    Thanks for all the info and support guys. The thing I'm worried about is being pulled over by Her or one of the cops on her shift. (She is the Sergeant.) She seems pretty set in her ways saying her experience in the field trumps whatever I have to say, even though I had documentation so prove it.
    I'm confused. In your original post you said "firearms".

    Everyone here has taken that to mean only handguns. Is that what you mean? Because the ability for a 19 yr old to carry a long gun is not even debatable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcmdon View Post
    I'm confused. In your original post you said "firearms".

    Everyone here has taken that to mean only handguns. Is that what you mean? Because the ability for a 19 yr old to carry a long gun is not even debatable.
    Yes, I meant handguns. The debate started when I told her I wanted to apply as a LEO with the local department and she said I wouldn't be hired, because I wasn't 21 (I turn 20 on Monday.) And she went on to say it's 21 because "You have to be 21 to own a handgun." Which is when I stepped in and corrected her.

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    It MAY be age 21 or more to be hired as a POLICE OFFICER for BONDING purposes (my opinion). It has nothing to do with if a 19 year old can POSSESS or OWN a firearm. A 19 y/o CAN legally own/possess a firearm/handgun. They cannot make the purchase from an FFL but if face to face private transactions are legal to ANYONE not otherwise disqualified who is 18 years or older THEN said 19 year old can BUY a handgun in a private transaction AND NOT VIOLATE ANY LAWS. By the way, NOT VIOLATING A LAW is by definition --LEGAL!
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 04-02-2011 at 10:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I wish I'd thought of that.

    I quit the NRA when I tired of their incessant demands for more money. Quitting was the only way to shut them up. At that, it took several months for the mailings to slow to a steady trickle.
    You are lucky. I quit over 2 years ago, for the same reason, and I still get phone calls soliciting money. This is in spite of my having told them I'm on the so called "do not call list."
    You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out of office

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    Quote Originally Posted by celticredneck View Post
    You are lucky. I quit over 2 years ago, for the same reason, and I still get phone calls soliciting money. This is in spite of my having told them I'm on the so called "do not call list."
    They may be exempt from the National Do Not Call Registry law. Report 'em anyway. Maybe they're not. Maybe they'll get the message anyway.

    If they are not exempt, there is a $10,000 fine per call that can be levied. Also, the individual making the call can be subjected to a fine, not just the organization.

    If you are on the do not call list, report them at donotcall.gov.

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    It MAY be age 21 or more to be hired as a POLICE OFFICER for BONDING purposes (my opinion). It has nothing to do with if a 19 year old can POSSESS or OWN a firearm. A 19 y/o CAN legally own/possess a firearm/handgun. They cannot make the purchase from an FFL but if face to face private transactions are legal to ANYONE not otherwise disqualified who is 18 years or older THEN said 19 year old can BUY a handgun in a private transaction AND NOT VIOLATE ANY LAWS. By the way, NOT VIOLATING A LAW is by definition --LEGAL!
    Years ago we had a 20 y/o in the academy. The PD made a deal for us to obtain our sidearms at wholesale prices. He had to get his mother to make the actual purchase and gift him the pistol. He was still legal. Just couldn't buy from a FFL holder. At that time it was the same with ammunition for his pistol. He could not buy it himself.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

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    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    Here's a cut and paste of the La AG opinion on the subject of those under 21 being hired and carrying a firearm as LEOs... (AGAIN, Louisiana, not NM) -
    April 13, 2000
    OPINION 00-58


    Honorable Nick Congemni
    Chief of Police
    1801 Williams Boulevard
    Kenner, LA 70062

    Dear Chief Congemni:

    You have asked this office to address the legality of hiring an eighteen-year old individual as a police officer, with added regard to the issue of whether such police officer may legally carry a firearm.

    Pertinent to the issue at hand is R.S. 33:2493(D), providing:

    D. Special requirements or qualifications for admission to tests, or for eligibility for appointment, such as age, education, physical requirements, etc., may be established by the rules adopted by the board, after consultation with the appointing authority. Any applicant must be, at the time of his appointment to a position in the classified service, of good health, good moral character, and of temperate and industrious habits.

    The Kenner Municipal Fire and Police Civil Service Board has adopted the following rules regarding qualifications requirements:

    QUALIFICATIONS REQUIREMENTS
    Unless otherwise specified, all requirements listed must be met by the filing deadline for application for admission for test.

    Must meet all requirements of the Municipal Fire and Police Civil Service Law, including being a citizen of the United States and pass a civil service exam with a score of 75% or greater.

    Must not be less than twenty-one years of age.

    Must have a high school diploma issued from a state department of education or a valid certificate of equivalency issued from a state department of education and furnish with application, or furnish a copy of a college/university transcript from a state accredited college or university.

    After offer of employment, but before beginning work in this class, must pass a medical examination prepared and administered by the Appointing Authority, designed to demonstrate good health and physical fitness sufficient to perform the essential duties of the position, with or without accommodation, for this position.

    Must have a valid Louisiana driver’s license at time of employment. (Emphasis added).

    We are advised by Ms. Melinda B. Livingston of the Office of State Examiner, Municipal Fire and Police Civil Service, that the appropriate petition requesting the board to amend the age qualification would effectively remove this limitation.

    Addressing your concerns regarding firearms, note that pursuant to federal law, 18 USC 922(b)(1), it is unlawful to sell or deliver any firearm, other than a shotgun or rifle, to anyone who is under age twenty-one. The law provides:

    (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver –
    (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age…

    However, an exception is made in sales for use by any state or any department, agency or political subdivision thereof, which would exempt a police officer for the City of Kenner. Federal law under 18 USC 925 pertinently provides:

    (a)(1) The provisions of this chapter, except for sections 922(d)(9) and 922(g)(9) and provisions relating to firearms subject to the prohibitions of section 922(p), shall not apply with respect to the transportation, shipment, receipt, possession, or importation of any firearm or ammunition imported for, sold or shipped to, or issued for the use of, the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof.

    Further, note that the prohibition of R.S. 14:95 relative to the illegal carrying of a weapon does not apply to persons vested with police power while in the performance of their lawful duties, as R.S. 14:95 pertinently provides:

    § 95. Illegal carrying of weapons

    A. Illegal carrying of weapons is:

    (1) The intentional concealment of any firearm, or other instrumentality customarily used or intended for probable use as a dangerous weapon, on one’s person; or

    (2) The ownership, possession, custody or use of any firearm, or other instrumentality customarily used as a dangerous weapon, at any time by an enemy alien;

    * * * * *

    G. (1) The provisions of this Section except Paragraph (4) of Subsection A shall not apply to sheriffs and their deputies, state and city police, constables and town marshals, or persons vested with police power when in the actual discharge of official duties. These provisions shall not apply to sheriffs and their deputies and state and city police who are not actually discharging their official duties, provided that such persons are full time, active, and certified by the Council on Peace Officer Standards and Training and have on their persons valid identification as duly commissioned law enforcement officers. (Emphasis added).

    Thus, a person vested with police power who is under the age of twenty-one may carry a firearm when in the actual discharge of official duties. In accord is Attorney General Opinion 93-49, copy attached.

    We hope the foregoing sufficiently addresses your concerns. Should you have further questions, please contact this office.

    Very truly yours,

    RICHARD P. IEYOUB
    ATTORNEY GENERAL



    BY: _________________________________
    KERRY L. KILPATRICK
    ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL

    KLK:ams
    00-58

    77 Officers

    R.S. 33:2493(D), R.S. 14:95

    Rule adopted by municipal fire and police civil service board regarding minimum age requirement for police officers currently disallows employment to those individuals under the age of twenty-one, but rule may be changed upon petitioning the board. Further, the federal restrictions on sale of guns to persons under the age of twenty-one does not apply to individuals vested with police power in the actual discharge of official duties.

    Honorable Nick Congemni
    Chief of Police
    1801 Williams Boulevard
    Kenner, LA 70062

    Date Received:
    Date Released: April 13, 2000

    KERRY L. KILPATRICK
    ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL

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