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I'm in a debate with a cop

JoeSparky

Centurion
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,621
Location
Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
It MAY be age 21 or more to be hired as a POLICE OFFICER for BONDING purposes (my opinion). It has nothing to do with if a 19 year old can POSSESS or OWN a firearm. A 19 y/o CAN legally own/possess a firearm/handgun. They cannot make the purchase from an FFL but if face to face private transactions are legal to ANYONE not otherwise disqualified who is 18 years or older THEN said 19 year old can BUY a handgun in a private transaction AND NOT VIOLATE ANY LAWS. By the way, NOT VIOLATING A LAW is by definition --LEGAL!
 
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celticredneck

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2008
Messages
168
Location
Amelia County, virginia
I wish I'd thought of that.

I quit the NRA when I tired of their incessant demands for more money. Quitting was the only way to shut them up. At that, it took several months for the mailings to slow to a steady trickle.

You are lucky. I quit over 2 years ago, for the same reason, and I still get phone calls soliciting money. This is in spite of my having told them I'm on the so called "do not call list."
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
You are lucky. I quit over 2 years ago, for the same reason, and I still get phone calls soliciting money. This is in spite of my having told them I'm on the so called "do not call list."

They may be exempt from the National Do Not Call Registry law. Report 'em anyway. Maybe they're not. Maybe they'll get the message anyway.

If they are not exempt, there is a $10,000 fine per call that can be levied. Also, the individual making the call can be subjected to a fine, not just the organization.

If you are on the do not call list, report them at donotcall.gov.
 

OldCurlyWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2010
Messages
907
Location
Oklahoma
It MAY be age 21 or more to be hired as a POLICE OFFICER for BONDING purposes (my opinion). It has nothing to do with if a 19 year old can POSSESS or OWN a firearm. A 19 y/o CAN legally own/possess a firearm/handgun. They cannot make the purchase from an FFL but if face to face private transactions are legal to ANYONE not otherwise disqualified who is 18 years or older THEN said 19 year old can BUY a handgun in a private transaction AND NOT VIOLATE ANY LAWS. By the way, NOT VIOLATING A LAW is by definition --LEGAL!

Years ago we had a 20 y/o in the academy. The PD made a deal for us to obtain our sidearms at wholesale prices. He had to get his mother to make the actual purchase and gift him the pistol. He was still legal. Just couldn't buy from a FFL holder. At that time it was the same with ammunition for his pistol. He could not buy it himself.
 

sraacke

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
1,214
Location
Saint Gabriel, Louisiana, USA
Here's a cut and paste of the La AG opinion on the subject of those under 21 being hired and carrying a firearm as LEOs... (AGAIN, Louisiana, not NM) -
April 13, 2000
OPINION 00-58


Honorable Nick Congemni
Chief of Police
1801 Williams Boulevard
Kenner, LA 70062

Dear Chief Congemni:

You have asked this office to address the legality of hiring an eighteen-year old individual as a police officer, with added regard to the issue of whether such police officer may legally carry a firearm.

Pertinent to the issue at hand is R.S. 33:2493(D), providing:

D. Special requirements or qualifications for admission to tests, or for eligibility for appointment, such as age, education, physical requirements, etc., may be established by the rules adopted by the board, after consultation with the appointing authority. Any applicant must be, at the time of his appointment to a position in the classified service, of good health, good moral character, and of temperate and industrious habits.

The Kenner Municipal Fire and Police Civil Service Board has adopted the following rules regarding qualifications requirements:

QUALIFICATIONS REQUIREMENTS
Unless otherwise specified, all requirements listed must be met by the filing deadline for application for admission for test.

Must meet all requirements of the Municipal Fire and Police Civil Service Law, including being a citizen of the United States and pass a civil service exam with a score of 75% or greater.

Must not be less than twenty-one years of age.

Must have a high school diploma issued from a state department of education or a valid certificate of equivalency issued from a state department of education and furnish with application, or furnish a copy of a college/university transcript from a state accredited college or university.

After offer of employment, but before beginning work in this class, must pass a medical examination prepared and administered by the Appointing Authority, designed to demonstrate good health and physical fitness sufficient to perform the essential duties of the position, with or without accommodation, for this position.

Must have a valid Louisiana driver’s license at time of employment. (Emphasis added).

We are advised by Ms. Melinda B. Livingston of the Office of State Examiner, Municipal Fire and Police Civil Service, that the appropriate petition requesting the board to amend the age qualification would effectively remove this limitation.

Addressing your concerns regarding firearms, note that pursuant to federal law, 18 USC 922(b)(1), it is unlawful to sell or deliver any firearm, other than a shotgun or rifle, to anyone who is under age twenty-one. The law provides:

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver –
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age…

However, an exception is made in sales for use by any state or any department, agency or political subdivision thereof, which would exempt a police officer for the City of Kenner. Federal law under 18 USC 925 pertinently provides:

(a)(1) The provisions of this chapter, except for sections 922(d)(9) and 922(g)(9) and provisions relating to firearms subject to the prohibitions of section 922(p), shall not apply with respect to the transportation, shipment, receipt, possession, or importation of any firearm or ammunition imported for, sold or shipped to, or issued for the use of, the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof.

Further, note that the prohibition of R.S. 14:95 relative to the illegal carrying of a weapon does not apply to persons vested with police power while in the performance of their lawful duties, as R.S. 14:95 pertinently provides:

§ 95. Illegal carrying of weapons

A. Illegal carrying of weapons is:

(1) The intentional concealment of any firearm, or other instrumentality customarily used or intended for probable use as a dangerous weapon, on one’s person; or

(2) The ownership, possession, custody or use of any firearm, or other instrumentality customarily used as a dangerous weapon, at any time by an enemy alien;

* * * * *

G. (1) The provisions of this Section except Paragraph (4) of Subsection A shall not apply to sheriffs and their deputies, state and city police, constables and town marshals, or persons vested with police power when in the actual discharge of official duties. These provisions shall not apply to sheriffs and their deputies and state and city police who are not actually discharging their official duties, provided that such persons are full time, active, and certified by the Council on Peace Officer Standards and Training and have on their persons valid identification as duly commissioned law enforcement officers. (Emphasis added).

Thus, a person vested with police power who is under the age of twenty-one may carry a firearm when in the actual discharge of official duties. In accord is Attorney General Opinion 93-49, copy attached.

We hope the foregoing sufficiently addresses your concerns. Should you have further questions, please contact this office.

Very truly yours,

RICHARD P. IEYOUB
ATTORNEY GENERAL



BY: _________________________________
KERRY L. KILPATRICK
ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL

KLK:ams
00-58

77 Officers

R.S. 33:2493(D), R.S. 14:95

Rule adopted by municipal fire and police civil service board regarding minimum age requirement for police officers currently disallows employment to those individuals under the age of twenty-one, but rule may be changed upon petitioning the board. Further, the federal restrictions on sale of guns to persons under the age of twenty-one does not apply to individuals vested with police power in the actual discharge of official duties.

Honorable Nick Congemni
Chief of Police
1801 Williams Boulevard
Kenner, LA 70062

Date Received:
Date Released: April 13, 2000

KERRY L. KILPATRICK
ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL
 

REALteach4u

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
428
Location
Spfld, Mo.
Be forewarned, the reaction you'll get with a lot of LEOs that take this kind of standpoint is this: It doesn't matter what it says or what you've printed out, this is what the intent is.

Even though they know all too well that it's what you can prove in court and the black-and-white is exactly what can be proven in court.

A good example is this, anyone who teaches their son or daughter to use a firearm and even become proficient at it (see FFA programs folks) are then breaking the law because they should be at least 18 years of age to buy a long-gun and 21 to buy a handgun by Federal law. We know this is not the case at all.

Does anyone (Doc, Bruce perhaps) have a court case for the above example? I thought I saw one posted on a forum some time ago, but I cannot recall enough to say yes or no 100%.

I'm not a lawyer here, but I agree that the age requirement within the Federal law applies to those purchasing/owning firearms, it does not apply to those in possession, especially if supervised by the owner.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Be forewarned, the reaction you'll get with a lot of LEOs that take this kind of standpoint is this: It doesn't matter what it says or what you've printed out, this is what the intent is.

Even though they know all too well that it's what you can prove in court and the black-and-white is exactly what can be proven in court.

A good example is this, anyone who teaches their son or daughter to use a firearm and even become proficient at it (see FFA programs folks) are then breaking the law because they should be at least 18 years of age to buy a long-gun and 21 to buy a handgun by Federal law. We know this is not the case at all.

Does anyone (Doc, Bruce perhaps) have a court case for the above example? I thought I saw one posted on a forum some time ago, but I cannot recall enough to say yes or no 100%.

I'm not a lawyer here, but I agree that the age requirement within the Federal law applies to those purchasing/owning firearms, it does not apply to those in possession, especially if supervised by the owner.

Teaching my son or daughter to use a firearm has absolutely nothing to do with the federal requirement that they be of age to buy a gun from an FFL.

The federal law only applies to purchasing from an FFL, not ownership, possessing, carrying or use thereof. Those are governed or not by state and/or local laws.
 

hermannr

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,327
Location
Okanogan Highland
Personal observation, opinion: If you wish to work for the sheriff as a LEO, do not antagonize the Sgt. You may be right, but she may determine who is hired, and if she looses, I will almost guarantee you will need to find another sheriff to work for...OK?

Most people like this Sgt, have a problem with "das Ich" that is, their ego...and if you step on it, you do so at your own peril...OK? Nuf said.

She may be very correct about the department not being able to hire you until you are 21, is her reasoning wrong..yes, but oh well.

So, that said, at 19 years old, is it legal for you to personally own, and carry a handgun?...yes. You may not obtain a CC permit until you are 21, and you may not be able to purchase from a FFL until you are 21, but that does not mean you cannot own and OC a handgun.

Is it possible for you to take the civil service exam and be qualified to be offered a job as a Sheriff's Deputy?...that depends on your local state and county laws/regulations/policies.

The first thing I would do If I were you is to find out when they are giving the next civil service test for sherrif's deputy, and then take the test. (if you are allowed to by local policy.) The normal process is to test, select a group from the test based on score to generate a list, then as openings occure, they will interview from that list. First thing is to get on that list....OK?
 

PracticalTactical

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
241
Location
Las Cruces, New Mexico
Here in Las Cruces they hire cops starting at 19.

The law is that nobody under 19 can possess a handgun with some exceptions, usually for an activity.

They can't purchase from an FFL, but somebody can give them or issue them one or they can buy from a private seller.
-------------------------------
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PracticalTactical

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
241
Location
Las Cruces, New Mexico
After skimming this site, reading about what LE can do based on the intent of the law, why would you want to work for an organization that permits a sergeant to hold these views and apparently admits that she will act on those views?

I'd be looking for a different department.

+1

Find someplace professional to work.


Shameless Sig Plug: Practical Tactical Training - The Best CHL class value in Southern New Mexico. PM me for details or call 575-520-8888
 

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
I'm in a debate with a cop;

Why? This is like arguing with a Giraffe, or a Waffle. Don't you have better things to do/realize that it is pointless to speak to inanimate objects?
 

tcmech

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Messages
368
Location
, ,
IANAL, and I have not read most of this thread after the title, but do not argue with an idiot, people watching may not be able to tell the difference.
 

Sc0tt

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Messages
315
Location
Asheboro, NC
^ :lol:


I'm in a debate with a cop
Started by Buniak383‎, 04-01-2011 11:54 AM

But why...? Dont you have better things to do like get a tooth pulled with no anestia , play chicken with a train, try to disprove gravity, play in traffic, take a tour of the IRS office with the name madeoff on your name tag. There are so much better things to do in life than waste you time arguing with a cop?
 
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eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
IANAL, and I have not read most of this thread after the title, but do not argue with an idiot, people watching may not be able to tell the difference.

The implication being that cops are idiots? If so, that is an arrogant and ignorant generalization. If not, please elaborate.

I still advise never relying on what a cop says the law is. But that advice has nothing to do with anyone's idiocy.
 

Sc0tt

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Messages
315
Location
Asheboro, NC
The implication being that cops are idiots?

Well, yeah?! But not all of them...... If there are intelligent cops out there they must not ever be around when I am looking for them? (More than likely they just know better than to come up to citizens peacefully exercising their rights and make a fool of them-selves)
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
IMHO - we should be working to gain cooperation with LEA and individual LEOs.

Slams, flames and negative generalizations portraying officers in an unfavorable light is not only against a specific rule here but contributes to maintaining misunderstanding and distrust.

If we indeed claim to be the good guys 'n gals then we need to rise above this petty level.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Well, yeah?! But not all of them...... If there are intelligent cops out there they must not ever be around when I am looking for them? (More than likely they just know better than to come up to citizens peacefully exercising their rights and make a fool of them-selves)

Please don't confuse lack of knowledge with lack of mental capacity.

Anyway, the post I quoted seemed to be generalizing to all officers. I am still awaiting a response from the person who made the "idiot" remark.
 

OldCurlyWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2010
Messages
907
Location
Oklahoma
Well, yeah?! But not all of them...... If there are intelligent cops out there they must not ever be around when I am looking for them? (More than likely they just know better than to come up to citizens peacefully exercising their rights and make a fool of them-selves)

I agree with Eye95. Never equate lack of knowledge with lack of intelligence.

The Vast majority of LEO's are anything but stupid. You try to follow the syllabus of any police academy. Generally 20- 39 weeks of 40 hours in the classroom plus the after hours homework. A test every week plus one every 4 weeks on EVERYTHING covered to date. It gets harder as you go. The average day is 18+ hours for at least 6 days a week.


More and more are requiring either an AS or a BS degree for consideration to be accepted to the academy with a bust out rate of about 25-40% of those who start.

The average intelligence of the recruits is probably in the 115-130 IQ range, where average in the general population is considered to be 100 IQ.

Nearly all if not all would qualify for OCS or any other officer program if the were in the military and applied for it. Most would be encouraged by their officers and NCO'S to apply.

I speak from experience.

BTDTGTT:cool:
 
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