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Thread: Why you shouldn't talk to the Police

  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Why you shouldn't talk to the Police

    I did a search but couldn't find this posted already. If I DID MISS IT well, sorry about the double post.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

    This was posted on a forum I mod and I found it very interesting. Not only for the content but that it was filmed in VA and has a VaBeach LEO telling all when it comes to talking to police and how ANYTHING you say can be turned around and used against you even if youíre innocent. The lawyer that starts it off makes reference to some VA cases (no one from here). The lawyer makes reference to laws and codes that can be used to backdoor you for a conviction.
    The video is 48 minutes but worth every second.
    At 8:30 into it lists the 10 top reasons not to talk and how doing so can be used against you. I really found the Miranda Rights part interesting in that they don't finish telling you the whole thing so that if you do talk it can be used against you. The "OFF THE RECORD" talk is bull as everything in relation to an active case is "ON THE RECORD".
    Thought y'all might find it interesting as well.

  2. #2
    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullbuster View Post
    I did a search but couldn't find this posted already. If I DID MISS IT well, sorry about the double post.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

    This was posted on a forum I mod and I found it very interesting. Not only for the content but that it was filmed in VA and has a VaBeach LEO telling all when it comes to talking to police and how ANYTHING you say can be turned around and used against you even if you’re innocent. The lawyer that starts it off makes reference to some VA cases (no one from here). The lawyer makes reference to laws and codes that can be used to backdoor you for a conviction.
    The video is 48 minutes but worth every second.
    At 8:30 into it lists the 10 top reasons not to talk and how doing so can be used against you. I really found the Miranda Rights part interesting in that they don't finish telling you the whole thing so that if you do talk it can be used against you. The "OFF THE RECORD" talk is bull as everything in relation to an active case is "ON THE RECORD".
    Thought y'all might find it interesting as well.
    Well known video which is worth reposting.
    That's Professor Duane at Regent University. I have experience with one of his former students.
    Last edited by t33j; 04-01-2011 at 08:12 PM.
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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    Yes, I have that video and lot's of others linked in the New to OC thread in my sig. There is lot's of useful info there, I encourage anyone to check it out. Most important thing I think is, to remember that EVERYTHING you say at anytime can and WILL be used against you. The less you say is the less you have to defend yourself from. If you say you're gonna remail silent, DO IT. Don't say it then spill your guts attempting to defend yourself.
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    Dang I really need to get better at the seasch thing on here. Didn't know it had been posted so many times already. I looked for a good 30 minuts and couldn't find it. I guess it proved again beyond typing I know squat about computers and aspects like searching for posts on forums.


    edit for typos.
    Last edited by Bullbuster; 04-02-2011 at 09:25 AM.

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    Simple thing to remember: if they have probable cause to arrest you, they are going to do so, regardless of what you say. If they don't have probable cause, talking to them will give it to them. Politely decline to chat. If they insist, ask whether you're free to leave. If they say anything other than "yes", ask to have your lawyer present during questioning and then keep your big mouth shut.
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    Regular Member USNA69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Simple thing to remember: if they have probable cause to arrest you, they are going to do so, regardless of what you say. If they don't have probable cause, talking to them will give it to them. Politely decline to chat. If they insist, ask whether you're free to leave. If they say anything other than "yes", ask to have your lawyer present during questioning and then keep your big mouth shut.
    Not long ago, someone on this Forum suggested that a better question is, "Why am I being detained?"


    The LEO can respond with only one of three answers:
    1. "You are being detained because .....", in which case you say nothing further.
    2. "You are not being detained", in which case you walk away ... or, as was suggested by another, you politely ask the LEO to leave you alone to go about your lawful business.
    3. LEO says nothing, which is, in essence, Reply #2.
    Hopefully, this exchange is captured on your digital voice recorder.

    Comments?

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    Constitutional Conversations

    This issue has come up many times on this forum. This might be of interest to some.

    http://www.wrl.org/events/constituti...onversations-3

    Constitutional Conversations

    The rights of the criminally accused - a fundamental part of the U.S. Constitution - will serve as the focus for this monthís Constitutional Conversations, the eight-month long series on our nationís founding document. Participants will divide into three groups. Adults will meet in the City Council Chambers in the Stryker Building, 412 N. Boundary St., while middle and high school students, and elementary students will meet in two separate groups in the Williamsburg Library, 515 Scotland St.

    The U.S. Constitutionís Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments protect the substantive and procedural rights of the criminally accused. Protection of rights for the criminally accused can often clash with competing American values that emphasize the control of crime and the provision of security for law-abiding citizens. Join conversation and explore foundational and challenging questions related to: (1) searches and seizures; (2) arrest and detainment; (3) police interrogations and the right against self-incrimination; (4) the right to counsel; (5) the right to a jury trial; and (6) the prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.

    Constitutional Conversations is the eight-month long examination of our nationís founding document presented by the Institute of Bill of Rights Law at the William and Mary Law School, the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation, and Williamsburg Regional Library. Advance registration for this free program is encouraged, but not required.

    When

    April 07, 2011 06:30 PM
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    Room: Room B

    Williamsburg Library
    515 Scotland St.
    Williamsburg VA 23185
    Phone: 757.259.4040
    Fax: 757.259.4079
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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USNA69 View Post
    Not long ago, someone on this Forum suggested that a better question is, "Why am I being detained?"

    The LEO can respond with only one of three answers:
    1. "You are being detained because .....", in which case you say nothing further.
    2. "You are not being detained", in which case you walk away ... or, as was suggested by another, you politely ask the LEO to leave you alone to go about your lawful business.
    3. LEO says nothing, which is, in essence, Reply #2.
    Hopefully, this exchange is captured on your digital voice recorder.

    Comments?
    No, not quite.

    If you demonstrate knowledge of being detained by asking "Why am I being detained?" No, you can't walk away if he doesn't answer because you are being detained! You just said so! It creates a positive dismissal requirement.

    It removes the saying nothing game. If he says nothing, then he's detaining you. If you try to leave, then you're resisting/fleeing, and you proved it in your own words. The point is that if the detainment is illegal, he has to say otherwise to cover his butt. Saying nothing doesn't fly anymore. If he says nothing, he detained you. It's about forcing him to say you're free to go. And if he doesn't, his saying nothing game works in your favor now, not his.

    You're being detained now, and he better have a damn good reason for it. Act accordingly. Do not leave, do not resist. Let him illegally detain you. Deal with it later.

    Most are a bit shocked when you demonstrate that you know what being detained is, and that he knows he hasn't got a reason to be doing it. They spit out "Oh, you're not being detained!" and the look on their face is priceless as you say "Then have a nice day, Officer!"

    You are NOT free to go under any other circumstance. You are the one who said so, and you won't be able to argue otherwise later. That's kinda the whole point... I hate to be overly redundant, but...

    "Why am I being detained." - You just said you're being detained. The whole point of it is to remove the disrespectful and childish game of not answering you. If they play it after you say THAT, then you're being detained! No question about it! Don't LEAVE! Your butt is being detained! The whole point is that he now has only one way to express that you aren't being detained. That is, so say exactly that! If he does anything else, or nothing at all, your premise that you ARE being detained stands. All his games work against him now. Don't attempt to leave or resist once you have established that you are being detained, duh! ;-) The whole point is to put him in the hot seat and make all his games incriminating against HIM. They aren't used to that, and usually blurt it out. But if they don't, you're being detained! Use it against him later.

    Cop: [corners you] Can I talk to you for a minute?

    YOU ARE NOW BEING DETAINED UNTIL HE SAYS OTHERWISE

    You: I'd prefer not to, Why am I being detained?
    Cop: You have a gun!
    You: That's not a crime, can you state a valid reason for detaining me?
    Cop: You're scaring people, don't you see the crowds running away screaming bloody murder? [no such thing is happening]
    You: .... I have nothing further to say.

    OR

    Cop: [corners you] Can I talk to you for a minute?

    YOU ARE NOW BEING DETAINED UNTIL HE SAYS OTHERWISE

    You: I'd prefer not to, Why am I being detained?
    Cop: "Oh, you're not being detained!"
    You: "OK, have a nice day Officer!

    Put them in the hot seat, but don't do something really stupid, like try to leave, once you know you're being detained! The whole point is that he has detained you without cause and has to make an actual statement to the contrary to remove that condition. If he fails to do so, then he's illegally detaining you (I will presume you haven't committed a crime). Illegal or not, it's still a detainment and you cannot resist or leave. You create an environment where HIS only way out of an illegal detainment situation is to actively say that you are free to go. If he does anything else at all, or nothing, then he has failed to release you from the illegal detainment. You are detained. Don't leave. Hit him with it later. Sue. Complaint. Re-education... Whatever your choice may be for dealing with the particulars and your preferences.

    It has never failed me yet. They always blurt out the "Oh, you're not being detained." All done! I don't stand there asking "Am I being detained?" all day long being self-detained waiting for an answer the jerk is never going to give me.

    But if that's not how it goes, then yes, you're being detained. Act accordingly.
    Last edited by ixtow; 04-05-2011 at 01:58 AM.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    No, not quite.

    If you demonstrate knowledge of being detained by asking "Why am I being detained?" No, you can't walk away if he doesn't answer because you are being detained! You just said so! It creates a positive dismissal requirement.

    It removes the saying nothing game. If he says nothing, then he's detaining you. If you try to leave, then you're resisting/fleeing, and you proved it in your own words. The point is that if the detainment is illegal, he has to say otherwise to cover his butt. Saying nothing doesn't fly anymore. If he says nothing, he detained you. It's about forcing him to say you're free to go. And if he doesn't, his saying nothing game works in your favor now, not his.

    You're being detained now, and he better have a damn good reason for it. Act accordingly. Do not leave, do not resist. Let him illegally detain you. Deal with it later.

    Most are a bit shocked when you demonstrate that you know what being detained is, and that he knows he hasn't got a reason to be doing it. They spit out "Oh, you're not being detained!" and the look on their face is priceless as you say "Then have a nice day, Officer!"

    You are NOT free to go under any other circumstance. You are the one who said so, and you won't be able to argue otherwise later. That's kinda the whole point... I hate to be overly redundant, but...

    "Why am I being detained." - You just said you're being detained. The whole point of it is to remove the disrespectful and childish game of not answering you. If they play it after you say THAT, then you're being detained! No question about it! Don't LEAVE! Your butt is being detained! The whole point is that he now has only one way to express that you aren't being detained. That is, so say exactly that! If he does anything else, or nothing at all, your premise that you ARE being detained stands. All his games work against him now. Don't attempt to leave or resist once you have established that you are being detained, duh! ;-) The whole point is to put him in the hot seat and make all his games incriminating against HIM. They aren't used to that, and usually blurt it out. But if they don't, you're being detained! Use it against him later.

    Cop: [corners you] Can I talk to you for a minute?

    YOU ARE NOW BEING DETAINED UNTIL HE SAYS OTHERWISE

    You: I'd prefer not to, Why am I being detained?
    Cop: You have a gun!
    You: That's not a crime, can you state a valid reason for detaining me?
    Cop: You're scaring people, don't you see the crowds running away screaming bloody murder? [no such thing is happening]
    You: .... I have nothing further to say.

    OR

    Cop: [corners you] Can I talk to you for a minute?

    YOU ARE NOW BEING DETAINED UNTIL HE SAYS OTHERWISE

    You: I'd prefer not to, Why am I being detained?
    Cop: "Oh, you're not being detained!"
    You: "OK, have a nice day Officer!

    Put them in the hot seat, but don't do something really stupid, like try to leave, once you know you're being detained! The whole point is that he has detained you without cause and has to make an actual statement to the contrary to remove that condition. If he fails to do so, then he's illegally detaining you (I will presume you haven't committed a crime). Illegal or not, it's still a detainment and you cannot resist or leave. You create an environment where HIS only way out of an illegal detainment situation is to actively say that you are free to go. If he does anything else at all, or nothing, then he has failed to release you from the illegal detainment. You are detained. Don't leave. Hit him with it later. Sue. Complaint. Re-education... Whatever your choice may be for dealing with the particulars and your preferences.

    It has never failed me yet. They always blurt out the "Oh, you're not being detained." All done! I don't stand there asking "Am I being detained?" all day long being self-detained waiting for an answer the jerk is never going to give me.

    But if that's not how it goes, then yes, you're being detained. Act accordingly.
    You stated the cop asked "Can I talk to you?" and then you say that is a detainment. You are incorrect. Cops can ask anyone to talk to them. That doesn't mean it's a detainment. It's consensual. You stated that you are detained until the cops says otherwise? "If he says nothing, he detained you"? That makes no sense. Can you find case law where the police have to tell you that you aren't being detained? You can't cause there isn't any, and you are incorrect. If you request (up to you), I can list some VA case law that says that police don't have to tell someone they aren't being detained or that they are free to leave. Police aren't going to tell you you aren't being detained because they don't have to.

    Instead of attempting witty remarks, just tell the officer you don't want to talk and walk away. If you are detained, they will tell you to stop at that point and make it clear that you aren't free to go. I have never seen an officer or heard of an officer randomly walking up to a citizen openly carrying and telling them that they are scaring people in a manner to detain them. Never. Can you provide any incidents in which this occurred?

    I thought this site banned legal advice unless it is supported with citations, right Citizen? So Mr. ixtow, will you please provide legal cites that support your legal advice?

    I agree with Citizen (I believe it's him), when he says that police understand verbal tactics when it comes to encounters and are very unlikely to be beat. Ixtow, you attempt "strategic fantasy police encounter conversation tactics" when in reality, we do this stuff everyday and have heard it all and know how to react.

    Honestly, 99% of LEOs are looking to bust criminals only and help out good guys. I'd like to make that 100%.
    Last edited by NovaCop10; 04-05-2011 at 02:32 AM.

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    You stated the cop asked "Can I talk to you?" and then you say that is a detainment.
    Other than the obvious Handle, you must be a Cop because you conveniently left out the part where the speaker was cornered. We both know that weather one feels free to leave involves far more than just words. I've never, ever been 'consensually' approached by a Cop. EVER, not even one time. Always blocking my bath, grabbing me, knocking me down, etc... Accompanied by what seems like a verbal consensual request, but physically, very much NOT consensual.

    If that condition persists, you are still detained. Period. There is no argument. Is there any doubt a person is being detained when their hands are twisted the wrong direction behind their back, inhaling dirt and grass, and being asked "Mind if I ask you a few questions?" Really? That's consensual?

    My example above isn't that extreme, but it's still a physical detainment accompanied by a falsely passive query. I'm suggesting that people not fall for that, acknowledge that they ARE being detained, and establish such on their voice/video recorders.

    Maybe not all Cops are that dirty up there. but so far, pretending my example didn't include it, makes you kinda look bad to me...

    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    You stated that you are detained until the cops says otherwise? "If he says nothing, he detained you"? That makes no sense.
    Makes perfect sense. If 4 cops surround you and prevent you from moving in any direction, you're detained until they say otherwise and get out of the way. Period. If they hold you down on the ground, cuff you, and say you're free to go as they turn out your pockets, uh, dur... Their words mean nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Can you find case law where the police have to tell you that you aren't being detained? You can't cause there isn't any, and you are incorrect.
    Actually, yes I can, and we both know it. But since you're playing the willful ignorance game, I'm not citing it.

    Something about how even a tone of voice can make a person feel they are not free to go... It's a rather famous case cited here many times. How many times have we both read it? You're pretending to miss the point I hammered over and over again in that post. The Officer, that means YOU, are not the one who makes the determination. Detainment occurs when your victim, er, subject, (reasonably) feels they are not free to leave. Period. A Cop blocking my path with his hand on his gun pretty well covers it. Definitely NOT free to leave. I'm not going to ASK if I'm being detained, because I know I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    If you request (up to you), I can list some VA case law that says that police don't have to tell someone they aren't being detained or that they are free to leave. Police aren't going to tell you you aren't being detained because they don't have to.
    If you state to the Officer that you know you aren't free to go, and said Officer does not contradict this; it's detainment. Period. No argument. If the Officer makes it clear that I am not free to go, by words, actions, tone of voice, etc... Then my butt is being detained. He better have RAS/PC.

    The carefully worded question is not a weapon. It is an opportunity for a Cop to back off when he's crossed the line. If he doesn't want to take that opportunity...

    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Instead of attempting witty remarks, just tell the officer you don't want to talk and walk away.
    Uh, no. You are at this point resisting detainment. And attempting to Flee. Ask any dirty Cop. That is, the kind of cop who would initiate an illegitimate detainment to begin with. By the nature of this circumstance, the Good Cops (if there is such a thing) won't be doing it and this matter it moot for them. This discussion relates exclusively to Dirty Cops.

    Attempting to escape a detainment by walking away results, almost every time, in being arrested. Then a false report claiming the copy-and-pasted phrase "The subject went limp and flailed his arms, I then took the subject into custody for resisting without violence." It's hard to find a police report in this town that doesn't have that phrase in it, verbatim. They all say it, whether it happened or not. I've watched Cops walk up behind a random guy and just start cuffing for no damn reason at all, and guess what, this line was in the report. Poor slob was just standing in line at Subway! Had no idea! If I hadn't been willing to stand up as a witness, he'd have a record now and never did anything wrong! Cop just felt like screwing with someone that day. How many times has he gotten away with it? Continuing to? I digress...

    It isn't an attempt at witty remarks. It's a way of saying "Hey, uh, I know you just seized my person and all, but do you really want to be doing that for no good reason?" And if he keeps it that way, well, he keeps it that way. You're being detained for no good reason.... Dur.

    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    If you are detained, they will tell you to stop at that point and make it clear that you aren't free to go.
    Which has already been determined... I don't need a Cop to tell me when I'm being detained. I already know when I am not free to leave.

    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    I have never seen an officer or heard of an officer randomly walking up to a citizen openly carrying and telling them that they are scaring people in a manner to detain them. Never. Can you provide any incidents in which this occurred?
    Really? You haven't ever been to this Forum before? this is your first visit? Virtually every unpleasant encounter documented in this place shows the Cops using that excuse. It's on Audio and Video all over the place. This can't possibly be an argument you want to make.

    Why are we having all these discussions about GATTTOTP then? Is that something you're also conveniently pretending not to know about? You're the one contradicting known facts. You're the one who needs the Citation.

    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    I thought this site banned legal advice unless it is supported with citations, right Citizen? So Mr. ixtow, will you please provide legal cites that support your legal advice?
    Wow, you really are a Cop... This isn't new. Pretending it is and then trying to invoke rules that have been hashed and re-hashed so many, many times in an attempt to censor what you don't want people to read... Real cute.

    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    I agree with Citizen (I believe it's him), when he says that police understand verbal tactics when it comes to encounters and are very unlikely to be beat.
    Yes, they do. We should, too. We should know how to avoid the traps as best we can. We should know how to make those games into a double-edged blade. It's no guarantee, but it sure saves me a lot of time...

    Hell, a cop can arrest me and charge me with any damn thing he wants to dream up. No RAS/PC at all. Then the Public Pretender won't even help. I'll have to spend money to get it thrown out, assuming I have witnesses who can contradict all the statements in his false report... I've been down this road my friend. I know all too well how much power the Cops have, and how they abuse it. It isn't theory or fantasy.

    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Ixtow, you attempt "strategic fantasy police encounter conversation tactics" when in reality, we do this stuff everyday and have heard it all and know how to react.
    This isn't about 'beating' anyone... nor is it a Fantasy. I use it and so do many others. And it works. You just don't like it.

    It's about determination of detainment, not asking about it and never getting an answer. It works, it works damn well. Why ask a rapist if you are being raped? It's stupid. You already know it's true, do you expect a straight answer? Really? If you're dealing with the sort of Cop who is willing to illegally detain people, do you really think that Cop is going to tell the truth about anything? Or even answer?

    You're right, Cops don't have to explain. But if there were respectable and civilized, they would. Wording the question in this way means that both parties know detainment has been established, and if it was not the Officer's intent to make a person feel as if they were not free to go, he has a chance to make it so! If he doesn't avail himself that chance, then illegal detainment it is! Please, please, please, find a way to disprove this repeatedly established fact. You're the one flying in the face of frequently cited and settled law. You're the one who needs the citation. Pretending that my example is something other than what it is and then arguing that made-up perversion of my words... Isn't that, yeah, I think it is. It's a Straw Man.

    Your advice is to resist illegal detainments, attempt to flee, and that all of my experience, and the experience of many others, never happened. Way to go. [sarcasm] I am obviously very wrong... [/sarcasm] Whatever. You have, yet again, made it very clear why the Cops are the last place to get any kind of advice at all... I guess this is the part where it is important to remember that Cops are allowed to lie.

    I think it's a matter of etiquette. Cops get used to people who just bend over and take it. This is a way of not only establishing that you aren't one of those people, but giving him a chance to back off and respect where the line is drawn. If he doesn't respect that, then detention is now unquestionable. And frankly, he deserves any action that can be taken against him.

    I make no attempt to hide that my initial intent, when I first started using it, was to file any kind of complaint I could over the matter. My contempt for the general idea of LEOs cannot be structured in any mortal tongue. But I realized the raw truth hidden in it, and it is far more useful and civilized in content than my original intent. I have since adjusted myself accordingly. It'd be nice if Cops did that, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Honestly, 99% of LEOs are looking to bust criminals only and help out good guys. I'd like to make that 100%.
    I'd say the percentage is waaayyy smaller than 99%, but I'd like it to be 100%, too.
    Last edited by ixtow; 04-05-2011 at 09:33 AM.
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  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Well said!

    I have Novacop on ignore so I can't see that dribble when he posts it...but it's interesting to see that in all the quotes you added....he didn't have even one valid point, Just dribble

    Better read the rules Novacop. It's OK to say "Dribble".

  12. #12
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Trying to invoke 'protected class' rules as a way to censor... I wouldn't be surprised, but this is the VA forum! Really? I'm used to that crap in the FL, AL, LA, MS forums. But here?

    Am I being racist, too, Nova? I hope you cross someone who doesn't take your crap. But I have a feeling you like your job and are just trolling here to muddy the waters.

    Tho, I do take issue with the fact that if I make a joke such as:

    "What do you call 100 Lawyers at the bottom of the Ocean? A good start!!!"

    If I replace the word "Lawyers" with the word "Cops," it calls for censorship.... This undeniably proves the bias towards protected class. Wouldn't it be offensive to User in it's original form? Yet I'm pretty sure I won't hear him bitching, or anyone trying to censor it.

    If I gave the advice that Novacop just did, I'd be bashed until my monitor broke. But since he's a protected class, and we've all seen the admins make examples of others.... We have to live in fear of what will happen if we dare to stand up, even on this silly Internet Forum.

    I know I am a thorn in Grapeshot's side, but I will always break the rules when they are not applied evenly. The admins need to replace that damn lop-sided butter knife of theirs.... Redistribute the censorship! Wealthspread! It's gotta be the most hypocritical crap I've ever seen. Supposedly support values of Freedom, then piss all over it with this behavior...
    Last edited by ixtow; 04-05-2011 at 01:32 PM.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I'm not sure it's Grapeshot despite the rumors I hear...but the board admins try to maintain a certain decorum and keep bashing to a minimum.

    There are LEO's and ex LEO's here that get along fine with everyone. Novacop tries and has always tried to provoke people with his innocent sounding comments, then go to the Administration crying about being bashed.

    He enjoys it. Thankfully he's not anonymous anymore and the comments he makes here will come back to haunt him when the opportunity presents itself.

  14. #14
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    I find Ixtow's comments regarding detainment not supported by commonly available definition. Even a brief search on Wikipedia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_an...tify_statutes] shows three different levels of interaction with police: Consensual, Detainment and Arrest:

    [Excerpts from] Police–citizen encounters

    In the United States, interactions between police and citizens fall into three general categories: consensual (“contact” or “conversation”), detention (often called a Terry stop, after Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968)), or arrest.

    Consensual
    At any time, police may approach a person and ask questions. The objective may simply be a friendly conversation; however, the police also may suspect involvement in a crime, but lack “specific and articulable facts” that would justify a detention or arrest, and hope to obtain these facts from the questioning. The person approached is not required to identify herself or answer any other questions, and may leave at any time. Police are not usually required to tell a person that she is free to decline to answer questions and go about her business; however, a person can usually determine whether the interaction is consensual by asking, “Am I free to go?”

    Detention
    A person is detained when circumstances are such that a reasonable person would believe he is not free to leave. Police may briefly detain a person if they have reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. Many state laws explicitly grant this authority; in Terry v. Ohio, the U.S. Supreme Court established it in all jurisdictions, regardless of explicit mention in state or local laws. Police may conduct a limited search for weapons (known as a “frisk”) if they reasonably suspect that the person to be detained may be armed and dangerous. Police may question a person detained in a Terry stop, but in general, the detainee is not required to answer.

    Arrest
    While detention requires only that police have reasonable suspicion that a person is involved in criminal activity, an arrest requires that the officer have probable cause to believe that the person has committed a crime. Although some states require police to inform the person of the intent to make the arrest and the cause for the arrest, it is not always obvious when a detention becomes an arrest. After making an arrest, police may search a person, her belongings, and her immediate surroundings.

    In addition, the American Dictionary of Criminal Justice defines Consensual Encounter as:
    "Any voluntary exchange between a police officer and a citizen with no restraint of individual liberty, because the police do not have any objective justification to stop, detain or arrest. The citizen is free to leave at any time and free not to cooperate or answer any questions."

    I saw in Ixtow's postings where he conflated a situation where the officer simply walks up and asks if he can have a conversation with a person, to a situation where he is down on the ground, eating grass, and cuffed. These are not the same situation. The definitions above would seem to indicate that simply being approached by a police officer does not equate to being detained.
    Last edited by JamesCanby; 04-05-2011 at 02:25 PM.

  15. #15
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    Hey!! No fair having a 4th and 5th Amendment conversation and not inviting me!

    I think a lot of the above discussion about detention tactics could have been avoided if cites, links, and quotes had been provided, and the writer's rationale based on those quotes.

    I did like the analysis point about self-admitting a detention and then walking away without a positive release by the cop. Good point, Ixtow!

    I'm a little busy just now, but I hope to get back and join the fun--discussing police encounter tactics, that is; not arguing.

  16. #16
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    "Why you shouldn't talk to the Police"

    Does that apply to posting to them on a forum as well.....?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    I find Ixtow's comments regarding detainment not supported by commonly available definition. Even a brief search on Wikipedia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_an...tify_statutes] shows three different levels of interaction with police: Consensual, Detainment and Arrest:

    [Excerpts from] Police–citizen encounters

    In the United States, interactions between police and citizens fall into three general categories: consensual (“contact” or “conversation”), detention (often called a Terry stop, after Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968)), or arrest.

    Consensual
    At any time, police may approach a person and ask questions. The objective may simply be a friendly conversation; however, the police also may suspect involvement in a crime, but lack “specific and articulable facts” that would justify a detention or arrest, and hope to obtain these facts from the questioning. The person approached is not required to identify herself or answer any other questions, and may leave at any time. Police are not usually required to tell a person that she is free to decline to answer questions and go about her business; however, a person can usually determine whether the interaction is consensual by asking, “Am I free to go?”

    Detention
    A person is detained when circumstances are such that a reasonable person would believe he is not free to leave. Police may briefly detain a person if they have reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. Many state laws explicitly grant this authority; in Terry v. Ohio, the U.S. Supreme Court established it in all jurisdictions, regardless of explicit mention in state or local laws. Police may conduct a limited search for weapons (known as a “frisk”) if they reasonably suspect that the person to be detained may be armed and dangerous. Police may question a person detained in a Terry stop, but in general, the detainee is not required to answer.

    Arrest
    While detention requires only that police have reasonable suspicion that a person is involved in criminal activity, an arrest requires that the officer have probable cause to believe that the person has committed a crime. Although some states require police to inform the person of the intent to make the arrest and the cause for the arrest, it is not always obvious when a detention becomes an arrest. After making an arrest, police may search a person, her belongings, and her immediate surroundings.

    In addition, the American Dictionary of Criminal Justice defines Consensual Encounter as:
    "Any voluntary exchange between a police officer and a citizen with no restraint of individual liberty, because the police do not have any objective justification to stop, detain or arrest. The citizen is free to leave at any time and free not to cooperate or answer any questions."

    I saw in Ixtow's postings where he conflated a situation where the officer simply walks up and asks if he can have a conversation with a person, to a situation where he is down on the ground, eating grass, and cuffed. These are not the same situation. The definitions above would seem to indicate that simply being approached by a police officer does not equate to being detained.
    Exactly James, Ixtow is attempting to portray that every encounter w/police is a detainment (by using the term "cornered" but then saying the officer requested to speak. There are many different factors when it comes to detainments (use of emergency lights, amount of officers present, use of weapons, etc etc) and I could go on and on. I enjoy discussions (debates) w/some other members, such as Citizen and Ed, because they actually have some knowledge to back their theories and I believe our differences lie w/interpretations. I won't engage Ixtow in a discussion in this matter because his ignorance towards the fundamentals of the 4th amendment combined with his obvious anti-LEO agenda will only result in the thread being locked up (w/PeterNappie using this thread to bash me personally w/out adding any input into the actual discussion as usual).
    Last edited by NovaCop10; 04-05-2011 at 11:19 PM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    "Why you shouldn't talk to the Police"

    Does that apply to posting to them on a forum as well.....?
    +1 lol

  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Exactly James, Ixtow is attempting to portray that every encounter w/police is a detainment (by using the term "cornered" but then saying the officer requested to speak.
    No, I am not doing any such thing. You're putting words in my mouth. I really don't appreciate that.

    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Admin is a boot-licking ******

    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    There are many different factors when it comes to detainments (use of emergency lights, amount of officers present, use of weapons, etc etc) and I could go on and on.
    Now you're agreeing while disagreeing? What? How?

    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    I won't engage Ixtow in a discussion in this matter because his ignorance towards the fundamentals of the 4th amendment combined with his obvious anti-LEO agenda will only result in the thread being locked up (w/PeterNappie using this thread to bash me personally w/out adding any input into the actual discussion as usual).
    No, you won't engage anyone who isn't willing to indulge your willful ignorance. I'm not following your lead into a lie, therefore, I'm not worth talking to.

    I'm willing to bet I have just as much experience rejecting predation as you have finding ways to get away with it.

    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Admin is a boot-licking ******

    I refuse to cite, especially with people who know damn well what the laws are and pretend not to. People who choose willful ignorance as a foundation for their argument will receive nothing from me but all the rope they need to hang themselves. Someone will come along and cite it. I won't play your childish little games. It is precisely this kind of attitude that my 'wordsmithing' is used for. Play your game on the street and I'll let you walk right into it and nail your ass later. Were you a decent cop, you wouldn't go there to begin with. These cases exist whether I cite them or not. Not citing them doesn't create RAS or PC on this forum, or anywhere else.

    That's the whole point. It's what I do. I'm not citing it. Ever. Period. Especially not to someone who pretends not to know and then insults me from that position. C'mon pal, have some more rope!

    My personal space is a place that decent cops are never in, and dirty ones wish they hadn't entered. I think it may be part of why my perspective is skewed. Good Cops have no reason to bother me in the first place, so I never meet them.
    Last edited by ixtow; 04-07-2011 at 05:10 PM.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Actual experience.

    Me: [playing pool]
    Cop: Can I talk to you for a minute?
    Me: I'd rather not.
    Cop: [stands so as to block me from positioning for the shot] You ready to talk now?

    This is detainment, for those who don't know.

    Me: Why am I being detained?
    Cop: You're not... [I interrupt]
    Me: Then move so I can go about my business.
    Cop: OK wiseass, you think you're a lawyer?
    Me: No, I think I'm a Citizen being attacked by a Cop abusing his power.
    Cop: You're hindering an investigation! I can arrest you for that!
    Me: Then you better do it!
    Cop: [loudly, looking around, trying to draw more attention to embarrass me with] Why aren't you cooperating?
    Me: I cooperate with everything I'm required to, which is nothing at this point.
    Cop: I'm investigating if you are committing a crime! Answer my questions [grabs cue stick away from me, also note he hasn't asked me any questions, he's just trying to intimidate me]
    Me: I paid a lot of money for that stick. Why don't you investigate from over there?
    Cop: Don't tell me what to do m*ther-f*cker! I'll do what I want!
    Me: I have nothing to say [ad nauseum while being spit on and cussed at, he eventually leaves realizing there are dozens of witnesses and he can't get away with the rest of what he wants to do, nor do I seem to be the pushover type who will let it slide; and it's a good fold, I didn't let it slide].

    You get the idea... I think Nova is about to get the ignore list. I don't even have LEO229 on there...

    I'm not portraying every encounter with a LEO as a detention. I'm advocating for the recognition of detention when it happens, instead of asking if the rapist is raping you and waiting for an answer that will never come. And then, to not be a moron and try to walk away when detention has been established and nobody is denying it....

    I was once pulled over by a FHP who let me know my tag light was out and thanked me for being an NRA member (bumper sticker). Way out in the middle of nowhere. Didn't ask if I had any guns in the car, or ask to search anything. Asked what I carried, I told him, he showed me his identical BUG. I thanked him for telling me my tag light was out, we went on our merry ways... Gosh, that was so confrontational! I must hate all Cops!

    I give back what I get. Disrespect me and I'll shove it in your face. Treat me like a civilized person, and you get a civilized response. Is that hard to understand?
    Last edited by ixtow; 04-07-2011 at 06:39 AM.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  21. #21
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NovaCop10 I won't engage Ixtow in a discussion in this matter because his ignorance towards the fundamentals of the 4th amendment combined with his obvious anti-LEO agenda will only result in the thread being locked up (w/PeterNappie using this thread to bash me personally w/out adding any input into the actual discussion as usual).
    Since I have you where you deserve...ON IGNORE, I wouldn't have even seen your bellyaching unless it was quoted (as it was).

    There's just no way to add to what you laughingly call discussion. It does make good joke material at gatherings though.

    I don't think I've ever personally bashed you...YET. You have an experience coming when I decide to!
    Last edited by peter nap; 04-07-2011 at 07:03 AM.

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    hmmmmm... awesome and educational video! Can't get over how fast that guy talks.

    Also the flexyourrights videos are worth a watch too.

    Thanks for sharing.


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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Since I have you where you deserve...ON IGNORE, I wouldn't have even seen your bellyaching unless it was quoted (as it was).

    There's just no way to add to what you laughingly call discussion. It does make good joke material at gatherings though.

    I don't think I've ever personally bashed you...YET. You have an experience coming when I decide to!
    For someone who has me on ignore (ha very immature) you sure do talk about me or Post to me enough. This is the Internet, I don't care nor fear your suspenseful future personal attack (again, very immature). I merely point out you only resort to insults instead of educational responses. You are too predictable.

  24. #24
    Regular Member crazydude6030's Avatar
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    Last edited by crazydude6030; 04-07-2011 at 09:05 AM.

  25. #25
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    For someone who has me on ignore (ha very immature) you sure do talk about me or Post to me enough.
    That's because I really don't like you! You just have that unlikable trait.

    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Personal attack

    That wasn't a personal attack, just the truth!

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