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Thread: Are recorders necessary?

  1. #1
    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Are recorders necessary?

    I haven't open carried yet so I was just wondering if people get harassed enough to carry recorders? I've heard all the recordings and everything on youtube from people open carrying, but does it really happen that often?
    Molon Labe

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  2. #2
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    Absolutely!

    I did not have a recorder for my first encounter. I made sure I had it for the second. The officers knew I had it and knew it was running. I am convinced that my second encounter went so much easier at least in part on account of the recorder.

    Unless you live somewhere where OCers are virtually never hassled, get and run a recorder at all times. Alabama has a history of harassing OCers. I don't leave home without it.

  3. #3
    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Absolutely!

    I did not have a recorder for my first encounter. I made sure I had it for the second. The officers knew I had it and knew it was running. I am convinced that my second encounter went so much easier at least in part on account of the recorder.

    Unless you live somewhere where OCers are virtually never hassled, get and run a recorder at all times. Alabama has a history of harassing OCers. I don't leave home without it.
    I live in Michigan, where it seems (from what I've read) more cops know about open carrying here than they do in most states. I'll probably try it out for a while and if I get hassled I'll pick one up from Walmart.

    I know that some people can go a year without being approached by police, but some people get detained their first day out. Hopefully I wont have any trouble. I don't really plan on giving the cops a hard time, since I'n a few years after the army I'll be applying to the MSP..lol
    Molon Labe

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    Here's another tip. Download the Qik.com app for your smart phone. The last time I checked, it was free for android iphone for the basic version.

    It records AND immediately streams whatever you record, audio or video, up to qik.com's site.

    Then if the cops take your phone and delete the video from the device, everything is still up in the cloud. From there you can download the file back down or push it up to Youtube.

    It is fantastic.

    Don
    Last edited by dcmdon; 04-02-2011 at 10:57 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcmdon View Post
    Here's another tip. Download the Qik.com app for your smart phone. The last time I checked, it was free for android iphone for the basic version.

    It records AND immediately streams whatever you record, audio or video, up to qik.com's site.

    Then if the cops take your phone and delete the video from the device, everything is still up in the cloud. From there you can download the file back down or push it up to Youtube.

    It is fantastic.

    Don
    I feel like a moron for not thinking of this, I have a Samsung Epic and I could use Qik or a voice recording program instead of buying a recorder. Problem solved. thanks!
    Molon Labe

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    I have no need for one. I carry enough stuff and hate the hassle.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Anyone who OC's but thinks they have no need for a recorder needs to talk with Peter Nap on the VA forum.

    OCing without a recorder is nearly as foolish as OCing with no ammo.

    The ammo, you need to protect yourself from amateur "bad guys".

    The recorder you need to protect yourself from "bad guys" with badges...

    If you are unprepared for EITHER sort of "BG", it could mean a RADICAL change in your life...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member DevinWKuska's Avatar
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    Question

    Speaking of... any of you have any suggestions for a good quiality recorder that wont break the bank? I saw someone at a washington meet up with one the size of a bluetooth headset and he said it recorded video as well... I have been told to look at spy sites but they sell pens recorders and what not... seems kinda cheesy
    "So there I was between a rock and a hard place, when it hit me... What am I doing on this side of the rock?"

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    There is an advantage to the cheap voice recorder over video devices or using your phone: You can leave the cheap voice recorder running continuously. When an encounter begins, I don't want to have to reach for a device to start it.

    Now, if the opportunity presents itself for me to start a program on my phone or a separate video recorder, those would provide better documentation. But most important is ensuring the documentation is created. The voice recorder, with its huge battery life, and near-endless recording space, guarantees that documentation.

    Olympus VN-5000, about $30. There are newer models out there. This does not have a USB, which makes uploading a bit clunky. Possible, but clunky. Similar devices with USB output would be more expensive.

  10. #10
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    Oh ya, go right ahead and record away, unless you intend to seek the LEO'S permission to do so,just make sure to have a team of laywers on retainer, and be prepared to cancel any serious plans for the next 5years and up to $10k in fines ..
    Just be smart, and check with your State/County statutes on even considering such a thing. Taking some of the shade-tree advice in here can end up getting you shafted on more than just a possible gun charge...



    " up to five years' imprisonment or a maximum of $10,000 in fines. They also allow for civil remedies, by which private parties are entitled to recover actual and punitive damages, together with fees and costs."

    "12 states forbid the recording of private conversations without the consent of all parties. They are California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington. "

    Listed by State, the no-go's..
    http://www.rcfp.org/taping/quick.html



    And, as for any hope of using such recordings as any form of evidence in a court action of some sort-kiss that dream bye-bye 90% of the time.

    "individuals and businesses that make surreptitious recordings often do so with the expectation that the recordings will be useful as evidence. Such recordings are subject to significant barriers to use as evidence. First, if made in violation of either federal or state law, the recordings will almost certainly be inadmissible. Second, even if lawfully recorded, the tapes will be exempt from the hearsay rule and will not, in most jurisdictions, be usable for impeachment. Anyone contemplating an evidentiary use of surreptitious recordings should consult with an attorney prior to making the recording.

    States Requiring One Party Notification
    Alabama
    Alaska
    Arizona
    Arkansas
    Colorado
    District Of Columbia
    Georgia
    Hawaii
    Idaho
    Illinois
    Indiana
    Iowa
    Kansas
    Kentucky Louisiana
    Maine
    Minnesota
    Mississippi
    Missouri
    Nebraska
    Nevada
    New Jersey
    New Mexico
    New York
    North Carolina
    North Dakota
    Oklahoma Oregon
    Ohio
    Rhode Island
    South Carolina
    South Dakota
    Tennessee
    Texas
    Utah
    Vermont
    Virginia
    West Virginia
    Wisconsin
    Wyoming

    States Requiring Two Party Notification
    California
    Connecticut
    Delaware
    Florida Massachusetts
    Maryland
    Michigan
    Montana New Hampshire
    Pennsylvania
    Washington




    And if all else fails, at least be up to speed under current statutes post-9/11.

    http://uscode.house.gov/download/title_18.shtml


    http://epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

  11. #11
    Regular Member DevinWKuska's Avatar
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    Hmm, my understanding of WA state law is that as long as I am in a public area it is not a private conversation and thus requires no party notification. I am looking into proof atm. Currently all I can find is RCW 9.73.030 which keeps stating PRIVATE conversations are illegal. I suspect if you were on the street or in say... a starbucks it would not be reasonable to assume your conversation is private. IMO sounds like its legal... but hey, I have no problem telling a LEO if he/she continues to ask questions or make demands(and I am not being detained) then he/she is agreeing to be recorded. Kinda like if you call customer service and it says "Your call may be recorded..." you continuing with the call makes it reasonable to assume you are agreeing
    "So there I was between a rock and a hard place, when it hit me... What am I doing on this side of the rock?"

  12. #12
    Regular Member stuckinchico's Avatar
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    CA does not require 2 party consent with LEOs
    Last edited by stuckinchico; 04-03-2011 at 10:09 PM. Reason: spelling

  13. #13
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    States requiring all parties consent to recording require that consent for private conversations. Public conversations, such as those between a police officer acting in his official capacity and a citizen, are recordable.

    Not that the police would think so! However, in a recent case in Maryland, where an officer tried to rely on an all-party law, the officer was slapped down and reminded that his official dealings should be done in sunshine.

    However the post that stirred the pot makes a valid point. Don't take legal advice on a message board (even though you clearly weren't and, until the post in question, no one purported to give it). Don't even take the ironically hypocritical legal advice offered in that pot-stirring post! Check Michigan law for yourself.

    Oh, and I stand by my practical (not legal) advice. If you think that there is a chance that you will unlawfully be hassled by a LEO for OC, carry a recorder and use it to record such unlawful encounters.

  14. #14
    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Well, considering I live in Michigan, and I doubt a cop will give me permission to use a recorder, I'd rather go solo than risk 10 years in jail..haha
    Molon Labe

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    Well, considering I live in Michigan, and I doubt a cop will give me permission to use a recorder, I'd rather go solo than risk 10 years in jail..haha
    Please don't assume that you'd go to jail. Check Michigan's law with an eye to PUBLIC conversations. If I don't miss my bet, an encounter with an officer is not a PRIVATE conversation and may be freely recorded.

    But check for yourself. Don't take the word of the poster who warned you against taking Internet legal advice any more than you would take my word.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    On the website referenced, is there anyone who missed the phrase in big bold letters - -
    A Practical Guide to Taping Phone Calls and In-Person Conversations in the 50 States and D.C.
    There are private conversations (which have an expectation of privacy) and there are public conversations (which do not). Official acts by public officials and public employees to not have an expectation of privacy.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 04-03-2011 at 11:35 PM.

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    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    just because something is highly unlikely to happen doesnt mean that it wont,its better to cover your a**

    if you get in a negative encounter with a LEO,you have evidence,if you have somebody threatening/attacking you then you also have evidence should the worst happen.

    i feel that a negative encounter in many states is extremely unlikely these days,other states i cannot comment on since there is a lack of data,or at least a lack of data that ive seen!no matter the state,my guess is in the very worse state,you wouldnt be stopped 95% of the time,and 95% of those times would be positive or neutral encounters.

    Like my state,i feel a negative encounter is extremely unlikely,all law enforcement is aware of the basic legality thanks to MSP legal update 86 from last fall,and most of the public is aware of the legality in part thanks to the fine members on this forum and local news media.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    Like I said,
    "Just be smart, and check with your State/County statutes on even considering such a thing."

    There are a ton of ways of interpreting a lot of these statutes, and post 9/11, you can be pretty sure most DA's/Judges arent going to be inclined to interpret them in your favor. Find a lawyer that has any knowledge in this area and check 1st before you go out there and try it, and get yourself jammed up 19 ways 2 Sunday and back.

    Keep in mind,also, that most of the info out there regarding this subject is based on either Federal/State- level statutes. Some cities/counties may have their own statutes in addition to such things, as well.
    As for the "private/public" aspect, I'd like to see case-law -beyond one case in one jurisdiction- that clarifies that. Relying on that in your jurisdiction is not terribly wise.

    In any event, even if it isnt outright against the law to record w/out consent, you'll still need a lot of luck getting any court to admit it into evidence in any form. Especially for those folks hoping to do so using digital media to record on.
    Proving that such a recording is original/unedited is going to be difficult without remembering to provide the MD-5 hash, or the like, for the original recording.

    http://www.forensics-intl.com/art12.html

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    "There are a ton of ways of interpreting a lot of these statutes, and post 9/11, you can be pretty sure most DA's/Judges arent going to be inclined to interpret them in your favor."

    More Internet lego-babble!

    Barring someone citing cases, read the laws and cases for yourself, applying plain-reading to them.

    Again, the irony is that the one who brought "don't take legal advice on the Internet" into a discussion where legal advice was not being offered is the one offering unsupported legal advice on how DAs and judges will interpret the law.

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    Well here's the difference, Sparky, data forensics,and especially surveillance such as vid/audio recordings are an area Ive had quiet a bit of 1st-hand dealings in- from the investigative side, as well as expert witness on evidence, gathered by others, in court.
    I've seen how it usually goes down- there are a LOT of little ins/outs to it that arent simply summed the way some of you hope it does in here.

    It varies a LOT from one jurisdiction and court to another.Also, there are a ton of rules and proceedures governing such evidence- be it from a lawful LEO entity or John Q.Citizen. It RARELY, if ever, goes down in favor of John Q. and usually ends up with JQ going away for some period of time.

    Im not giving anyone legal advice-Im just telling folks that before they jam themselves up and open cans of worms they really dont want opened by doing such recordings, to check with their local laws/statutes.

    Which would you prefer? I simply sit and watch boneheads on a forum with interweb shadetree lawyering degrees advise folks to do things that may bring them all kinds of probs? Or would you rather I inform them they should look the matter over a bit more seriously before they find out the hard way?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Well here's the difference, Sparky, data forensics,and especially surveillance such as vid/audio recordings are an area Ive had quiet a bit of 1st-hand dealings in- from the investigative side, as well as expert witness on evidence, gathered by others, in court.
    I've seen how it usually goes down- there are a LOT of little ins/outs to it that arent simply summed the way some of you hope it does in here.

    It varies a LOT from one jurisdiction and court to another.Also, there are a ton of rules and proceedures governing such evidence- be it from a lawful LEO entity or John Q.Citizen. It RARELY, if ever, goes down in favor of John Q. and usually ends up with JQ going away for some period of time.

    Im not giving anyone legal advice-Im just telling folks that before they jam themselves up and open cans of worms they really dont want opened by doing such recordings, to check with their local laws/statutes.

    Which would you prefer? I simply sit and watch boneheads on a forum with interweb shadetree lawyering degrees advise folks to do things that may bring them all kinds of probs? Or would you rather I inform them they should look the matter over a bit more seriously before they find out the hard way?
    Well, here's the thing, BooBoo: The name is eye, not Sparky.

    Message board creds and a quarter won't even get you a cup of coffee these days. I still find it ironic that you are the only poster in this thread who is trying to message-board-lawyer while warning others against lending any credence to message-board-lawyers!

    The OP was asking about whether or not he should record, not the circumstances under which it was legal. The rest of us assumed that he would research the legality of the specific actions he was to take--and then you whipped out your Internet JD and started giving legal advice! (Flawed advice, at that. You jumped to the unfounded conclusion that recording the stop of a citizen by a police officer as being a private communication.)

    So, BooBoo, I am done pointing out the laughable hypocrisy of what you are doing in this thread and will just remind the OP to check the laws in his State regarding recording. Specifically look for the distinction between private conversations and public interactions. I suspect that you will be surprised at the extent to which interactions will be considered public and carry no expectation of privacy.

    Oh, and to the OP: We have real-life JDs on this board, with licenses to practice and who have been admitted to one or more bars. One of them is currently defending skidmark. I know that he has surprised me with information on what and where we can record. And he actually knows black-letter and case law. Feel free to take advice from such real-life lawyers.

    Neither I nor BooBoo are lawyers.

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    w/e u need to tell yourself, COMMENT REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Derogatory term.

    But go ahead,OP, and others, take this guy's advice vs. reality, just be sure to call him for bail money.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    w/e u need to tell yourself, browneye.

    But go ahead,OP, and others, take this guy's advice vs. reality, just be sure to call him for bail money.
    Ohio's a one party consent state. I need neither notice nor permission to record a conversation to which I am a party. That's straight from an experienced criminal attorney.

  24. #24
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    State vs. Flora, and many other court rulings show that any recording in public is allowed, and that conversations between LEO and "civilians" are usually not private either, if the LEO has no reason to believe you won't go tell someone your encounter he has no expectation of privacy and you can record. (This is for Washington) and we have many LEO recordings here and none of the recording party were ever charged.

    Eye was the Maryland case struck down by that state court or SCOTUS?
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 04-05-2011 at 10:13 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  25. #25
    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Haha, I think I'll stick to not recording, jail time doesn't sound fun. I'll be off into the army in a few months, and when I get back Ill have a Michigan State Police badge, so I doubt I'll get harassed before then..I hope.
    Molon Labe

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