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Are recorders necessary?

MikeTheGreek

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
590
Location
Northville, Michigan
I haven't open carried yet so I was just wondering if people get harassed enough to carry recorders? I've heard all the recordings and everything on youtube from people open carrying, but does it really happen that often?
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Absolutely!

I did not have a recorder for my first encounter. I made sure I had it for the second. The officers knew I had it and knew it was running. I am convinced that my second encounter went so much easier at least in part on account of the recorder.

Unless you live somewhere where OCers are virtually never hassled, get and run a recorder at all times. Alabama has a history of harassing OCers. I don't leave home without it.
 

MikeTheGreek

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
590
Location
Northville, Michigan
Absolutely!

I did not have a recorder for my first encounter. I made sure I had it for the second. The officers knew I had it and knew it was running. I am convinced that my second encounter went so much easier at least in part on account of the recorder.

Unless you live somewhere where OCers are virtually never hassled, get and run a recorder at all times. Alabama has a history of harassing OCers. I don't leave home without it.

I live in Michigan, where it seems (from what I've read) more cops know about open carrying here than they do in most states. I'll probably try it out for a while and if I get hassled I'll pick one up from Walmart.

I know that some people can go a year without being approached by police, but some people get detained their first day out. Hopefully I wont have any trouble. I don't really plan on giving the cops a hard time, since I'n a few years after the army I'll be applying to the MSP..lol
 

dcmdon

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
469
Location
Old Saybrook, CT
Here's another tip. Download the Qik.com app for your smart phone. The last time I checked, it was free for android iphone for the basic version.

It records AND immediately streams whatever you record, audio or video, up to qik.com's site.

Then if the cops take your phone and delete the video from the device, everything is still up in the cloud. From there you can download the file back down or push it up to Youtube.

It is fantastic.

Don
 
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MikeTheGreek

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
590
Location
Northville, Michigan
Here's another tip. Download the Qik.com app for your smart phone. The last time I checked, it was free for android iphone for the basic version.

It records AND immediately streams whatever you record, audio or video, up to qik.com's site.

Then if the cops take your phone and delete the video from the device, everything is still up in the cloud. From there you can download the file back down or push it up to Youtube.

It is fantastic.

Don

I feel like a moron for not thinking of this, I have a Samsung Epic and I could use Qik or a voice recording program instead of buying a recorder. Problem solved. thanks!
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
Anyone who OC's but thinks they have no need for a recorder needs to talk with Peter Nap on the VA forum.

OCing without a recorder is nearly as foolish as OCing with no ammo.

The ammo, you need to protect yourself from amateur "bad guys".

The recorder you need to protect yourself from "bad guys" with badges...

If you are unprepared for EITHER sort of "BG", it could mean a RADICAL change in your life...
 

DevinWKuska

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
300
Location
Spanaway
Speaking of... any of you have any suggestions for a good quiality recorder that wont break the bank? I saw someone at a washington meet up with one the size of a bluetooth headset and he said it recorded video as well... I have been told to look at spy sites but they sell pens recorders and what not... seems kinda cheesy
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
There is an advantage to the cheap voice recorder over video devices or using your phone: You can leave the cheap voice recorder running continuously. When an encounter begins, I don't want to have to reach for a device to start it.

Now, if the opportunity presents itself for me to start a program on my phone or a separate video recorder, those would provide better documentation. But most important is ensuring the documentation is created. The voice recorder, with its huge battery life, and near-endless recording space, guarantees that documentation.

Olympus VN-5000, about $30. There are newer models out there. This does not have a USB, which makes uploading a bit clunky. Possible, but clunky. Similar devices with USB output would be more expensive.
 

j4l

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,835
Location
fl
Oh ya, go right ahead and record away, unless you intend to seek the LEO'S permission to do so,just make sure to have a team of laywers on retainer, and be prepared to cancel any serious plans for the next 5years and up to $10k in fines ..
Just be smart, and check with your State/County statutes on even considering such a thing. Taking some of the shade-tree advice in here can end up getting you shafted on more than just a possible gun charge...

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

" up to five years' imprisonment or a maximum of $10,000 in fines. They also allow for civil remedies, by which private parties are entitled to recover actual and punitive damages, together with fees and costs."

"12 states forbid the recording of private conversations without the consent of all parties. They are California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington. "

Listed by State, the no-go's..
http://www.rcfp.org/taping/quick.html



And, as for any hope of using such recordings as any form of evidence in a court action of some sort-kiss that dream bye-bye 90% of the time.

"individuals and businesses that make surreptitious recordings often do so with the expectation that the recordings will be useful as evidence. Such recordings are subject to significant barriers to use as evidence. First, if made in violation of either federal or state law, the recordings will almost certainly be inadmissible. Second, even if lawfully recorded, the tapes will be exempt from the hearsay rule and will not, in most jurisdictions, be usable for impeachment. Anyone contemplating an evidentiary use of surreptitious recordings should consult with an attorney prior to making the recording.

States Requiring One Party Notification
Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
Colorado
District Of Columbia
Georgia
Hawaii
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas
Kentucky Louisiana
Maine
Minnesota
Mississippi
Missouri
Nebraska
Nevada
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
North Carolina
North Dakota
Oklahoma Oregon
Ohio
Rhode Island
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Vermont
Virginia
West Virginia
Wisconsin
Wyoming

States Requiring Two Party Notification
California
Connecticut
Delaware
Florida Massachusetts
Maryland
Michigan
Montana New Hampshire
Pennsylvania
Washington




And if all else fails, at least be up to speed under current statutes post-9/11.

http://uscode.house.gov/download/title_18.shtml


http://epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html
 

DevinWKuska

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
300
Location
Spanaway
Hmm, my understanding of WA state law is that as long as I am in a public area it is not a private conversation and thus requires no party notification. I am looking into proof atm. Currently all I can find is RCW 9.73.030 which keeps stating PRIVATE conversations are illegal. I suspect if you were on the street or in say... a starbucks it would not be reasonable to assume your conversation is private. IMO sounds like its legal... but hey, I have no problem telling a LEO if he/she continues to ask questions or make demands(and I am not being detained) then he/she is agreeing to be recorded. Kinda like if you call customer service and it says "Your call may be recorded..." you continuing with the call makes it reasonable to assume you are agreeing
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
States requiring all parties consent to recording require that consent for private conversations. Public conversations, such as those between a police officer acting in his official capacity and a citizen, are recordable.

Not that the police would think so! However, in a recent case in Maryland, where an officer tried to rely on an all-party law, the officer was slapped down and reminded that his official dealings should be done in sunshine.

However the post that stirred the pot makes a valid point. Don't take legal advice on a message board (even though you clearly weren't and, until the post in question, no one purported to give it). Don't even take the ironically hypocritical legal advice offered in that pot-stirring post! Check Michigan law for yourself.

Oh, and I stand by my practical (not legal) advice. If you think that there is a chance that you will unlawfully be hassled by a LEO for OC, carry a recorder and use it to record such unlawful encounters.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Well, considering I live in Michigan, and I doubt a cop will give me permission to use a recorder, I'd rather go solo than risk 10 years in jail..haha

Please don't assume that you'd go to jail. Check Michigan's law with an eye to PUBLIC conversations. If I don't miss my bet, an encounter with an officer is not a PRIVATE conversation and may be freely recorded.

But check for yourself. Don't take the word of the poster who warned you against taking Internet legal advice any more than you would take my word.
 

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
On the website referenced, is there anyone who missed the phrase in big bold letters - -
A Practical Guide to Taping Phone Calls and In-Person Conversations in the 50 States and D.C.
There are private conversations (which have an expectation of privacy) and there are public conversations (which do not). Official acts by public officials and public employees to not have an expectation of privacy.
 
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lil_freak_66

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2008
Messages
1,799
Location
Mason, Michigan
just because something is highly unlikely to happen doesnt mean that it wont,its better to cover your a**

if you get in a negative encounter with a LEO,you have evidence,if you have somebody threatening/attacking you then you also have evidence should the worst happen.

i feel that a negative encounter in many states is extremely unlikely these days,other states i cannot comment on since there is a lack of data,or at least a lack of data that ive seen!no matter the state,my guess is in the very worse state,you wouldnt be stopped 95% of the time,and 95% of those times would be positive or neutral encounters.

Like my state,i feel a negative encounter is extremely unlikely,all law enforcement is aware of the basic legality thanks to MSP legal update 86 from last fall,and most of the public is aware of the legality in part thanks to the fine members on this forum and local news media.
 

j4l

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,835
Location
fl
Like I said,
"Just be smart, and check with your State/County statutes on even considering such a thing."

There are a ton of ways of interpreting a lot of these statutes, and post 9/11, you can be pretty sure most DA's/Judges arent going to be inclined to interpret them in your favor. Find a lawyer that has any knowledge in this area and check 1st before you go out there and try it, and get yourself jammed up 19 ways 2 Sunday and back.

Keep in mind,also, that most of the info out there regarding this subject is based on either Federal/State- level statutes. Some cities/counties may have their own statutes in addition to such things, as well.
As for the "private/public" aspect, I'd like to see case-law -beyond one case in one jurisdiction- that clarifies that. Relying on that in your jurisdiction is not terribly wise.

In any event, even if it isnt outright against the law to record w/out consent, you'll still need a lot of luck getting any court to admit it into evidence in any form. Especially for those folks hoping to do so using digital media to record on.
Proving that such a recording is original/unedited is going to be difficult without remembering to provide the MD-5 hash, or the like, for the original recording.

http://www.forensics-intl.com/art12.html
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
"There are a ton of ways of interpreting a lot of these statutes, and post 9/11, you can be pretty sure most DA's/Judges arent going to be inclined to interpret them in your favor."

More Internet lego-babble!

Barring someone citing cases, read the laws and cases for yourself, applying plain-reading to them.

Again, the irony is that the one who brought "don't take legal advice on the Internet" into a discussion where legal advice was not being offered is the one offering unsupported legal advice on how DAs and judges will interpret the law.
 

j4l

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,835
Location
fl
Well here's the difference, Sparky, data forensics,and especially surveillance such as vid/audio recordings are an area Ive had quiet a bit of 1st-hand dealings in- from the investigative side, as well as expert witness on evidence, gathered by others, in court.
I've seen how it usually goes down- there are a LOT of little ins/outs to it that arent simply summed the way some of you hope it does in here.

It varies a LOT from one jurisdiction and court to another.Also, there are a ton of rules and proceedures governing such evidence- be it from a lawful LEO entity or John Q.Citizen. It RARELY, if ever, goes down in favor of John Q. and usually ends up with JQ going away for some period of time.

Im not giving anyone legal advice-Im just telling folks that before they jam themselves up and open cans of worms they really dont want opened by doing such recordings, to check with their local laws/statutes.

Which would you prefer? I simply sit and watch boneheads on a forum with interweb shadetree lawyering degrees advise folks to do things that may bring them all kinds of probs? Or would you rather I inform them they should look the matter over a bit more seriously before they find out the hard way?
 
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