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Thread: I felt naked!!!

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    Exclamation I felt naked!!!

    Had to go to Chicago yesterday on business (Amtrack)...
    Had to leave my HK, spare mags, and tac knife, behind and I Felt absolutely NAKED!!! All I could fudge in was my OCS and walking cane... I know a few tricks with that too, but then who brings a cane to a gun fight....

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    Had to go to Chicago yesterday on business (Amtrack)...
    Had to leave my HK, spare mags, and tac knife, behind and I Felt absolutely NAKED!!! All I could fudge in was my OCS and walking cane... I know a few tricks with that too, but then who brings a cane to a gun fight....
    Law abiding citizens come unarmed to gun fights against criminals.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Glad you made it back.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    Had to go to Chicago yesterday on business (Amtrack)...
    Had to leave my HK, spare mags, and tac knife, behind and I Felt absolutely NAKED!!! All I could fudge in was my OCS and walking cane... I know a few tricks with that too, but then who brings a cane to a gun fight....
    That's why I always drive ...
    Last edited by DrTodd; 04-03-2011 at 12:00 AM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    driving to chicago doesn't make your firearm legal there if it's your final destination
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    I just looked up the Chicago knife laws. Looks like 2.5" blades are the maximum length. Legally. Made me laugh, because the last time I was there I was 12 years old, which was 13 years ago, and I was carrying a 4" Buck.

    Anyway, my opinion is that next time you should consider weighing the legal risks and personal benefits of taking a folding fighting knife of whatever kind you're most comfortable with that you can conceal. So long as you don't actually have to stab anyone A- no one will know you have it and B- cops don't generally care about people with knives who aren't being idiots or jerks, though of course you never knoe for sure with cops, and C- at mugging distance, a good knife in the hands of someone who knows how to use it is just as dangerous, and easily arguably more so, than a gun in the hands of an equally skilled user.

    Of course, if you want to try my oddball options there are others. A micro torch and a bottle full of gasoline, a pop top water bottle filled with ammonia, or a nose spray bottle filled with ammonia, a framing hammer or hatchet with some other token tools in a duffel bag. A gun fight is not a gun fight, it is a fight. And the critically important rule of any fight is to be the first person with the most aggression. Or to put it another way you have to be as vicious as possible. Plus you have to know what you're doing.

    About Amtrac, your lack of weapons and DrTodd's driving make me curious, do they now use metal detectors or something? I haven't been on an Amtrac since before 9-11, so I'm kind of curious what, if anything has changed about their security.
    Last edited by Michigander; 04-03-2011 at 12:24 PM.
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    Regular Member TheGrabber's Avatar
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    Amtrak

    AMTRAK banned all weapons following 9/11, but in 2010, Sen. Roger Wicker, R-Miss., attached an amendment to a transportation funding bill that made $1.5 billion in Amtrak funds contingent on allowing train travelers to transport firearms in checked baggage. The Wicker Amendment passed the Senate by 68 to 30.

    So effective on December 15, 2010, Amtrak will accept reservations of firearms and ammunition for carriage between Amtrak stations and on Amtrak trains within the United States that offer checked baggage service.

    Unfortunately for us in Michigan, The Bluewater, Wolverine, and Pere Marquette trains do not have checked baggage.

    Here is a link to Amtrak's weapon policy http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/Conten...=1248542758975



    BTW: Amtrak's site says no firearms or ammunition in carry on baggage, only checked baggage, BUT I see nothing that says about carrying on your person, but that's another can of worms.


    AMTRAK SECURITY MESSAGE:
    Amtrak, along with the Amtrak Police Department, has a range of behind-the-scenes and front-line security measures in place to ensure passenger rail security.

    Among these security measures, some of which are conducted on an unpredictable or random basis, passengers may notice any of the following in stations or onboard trains:

    * Uniformed police officers and Special Operations Units
    * Random passenger and carry-on baggage screening and inspection*
    * K-9 units
    * Checked baggage screening
    * Onboard security checks
    * Identification checks

    *With due respect to passengers' privacy, the random screening and inspection of passengers and their personal items will be completed as quickly as possible - usually in less than a minute. Passengers failing to consent to security procedures will be denied access to trains and refused carriage, and a refund will be offered.
    Last edited by TheGrabber; 04-03-2011 at 01:04 PM. Reason: Edit to add
    I'm not a lawyer, psychologist, or LEO. This means, don't rely on my opinion to work for you.
    But I am a railroad conductor.
    “Breathes their a man with a soul so dead, that does not thrill to the sound of a passing train?”

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    Is the loss of your freedom or your life worth a ride on a train?

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Who cares if AMTRAK's policy doesn't allow firearms?

    Last I checked, there is no metal detectors for AMTRAK. Put a gun in your laptop bag, no one will ever know.

    Does AMTRAK have the force of law behind their policy? Is it a crime to disobey AMTRAK's policy?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrabber View Post
    AMTRAK banned all weapons following 9/11, but in 2010, Sen. Roger Wicker, R-Miss., attached an amendment to a transportation funding bill that made $1.5 billion in Amtrak funds contingent on allowing train travelers to transport firearms in checked baggage. The Wicker Amendment passed the Senate by 68 to 30.

    So effective on December 15, 2010, Amtrak will accept reservations of firearms and ammunition for carriage between Amtrak stations and on Amtrak trains within the United States that offer checked baggage service.

    Unfortunately for us in Michigan, The Bluewater, Wolverine, and Pere Marquette trains do not have checked baggage.

    Here is a link to Amtrak's weapon policy http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/Conten...=1248542758975



    BTW: Amtrak's site says no firearms or ammunition in carry on baggage, only checked baggage, BUT I see nothing that says about carrying on your person, but that's another can of worms.


    AMTRAK SECURITY MESSAGE:
    Amtrak, along with the Amtrak Police Department, has a range of behind-the-scenes and front-line security measures in place to ensure passenger rail security.

    Among these security measures, some of which are conducted on an unpredictable or random basis, passengers may notice any of the following in stations or onboard trains:

    * Uniformed police officers and Special Operations Units
    * Random passenger and carry-on baggage screening and inspection*
    * K-9 units
    * Checked baggage screening
    * Onboard security checks
    * Identification checks

    *With due respect to passengers' privacy, the random screening and inspection of passengers and their personal items will be completed as quickly as possible - usually in less than a minute. Passengers failing to consent to security procedures will be denied access to trains and refused carriage, and a refund will be offered.
    I am not an attorney, but it appears that under Federal Law, you must inform any common/contract carrier that a bag/package contains a firearm.

    TITLE 18,PART I,CHAPTER 44 §922(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

    So IMHO, according to Federal Law, you must inform the carrier.
    As was stated above, Amtrak ONLY allows firearms in checked bagage and does not offer that service on MANY lines. That's why I would drive.

    see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcVl39Dcdno

    They are doing inspections as they see fit!

    Now, IMHO regarding Chicago's firearm law, two things are important: The law of the State of Illinois and of the City of Chicago.

    1st, Illinois allows people from out of state to possess a firearm in Illinois IF they meet one of the exceptions for a FOID card. A permit to carry is listed as an exemption.

    So, a person with a CPL holder may possess a firearm in Illinois under the same terms as a person with a CPL. How does a person with a FOID have to transport a firearm?
    Well, the Illinois State Police say:

    IF A non-resident Is Coming To Illinois
    to hunt And would like to bring
    their firearm, how do they Legally
    Transport it?
    Non-residents must be legally eligible to possess
    or acquire firearms and ammunition in their state of
    residence. It is recommended that in order to be in
    compliance with all statutes, non-residents transport
    all firearms:
    1. Unloaded, and
    2. Enclosed in a case, and
    3. Not immediately accessible or broken down in a
    nonfunctioning state.


    The case is required because the Wildlife Code applied to your possessio.
    see http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...5-illinois.pdf

    If a person is just just bringing their firearm into the state and have a CPL, in order to comply with those statutes when transporting a firearm, it must be unloaded,enclosed in a case, by persons who have a valid Foid card/(CPL exempt) or broken down in a non-functioning state.

    Chicago ONLY acknowledges firearms that are being carried under the exemption in Federal Law see section 8-20-90 http://mayor.cityofchicago.org/etc/m...ance7-1-10.pdf

    But, it appears that if you drove through the city of Chicago and had as your "end-point" a place just outside of the city... perhaps a restaurant or staying overnight, you could possess in Chicago because your possession would be legal in that part of Illinois outside of Chicago. But, Chicago does say that you can only stay in Chicago for a period less than 24 hours. see section 8-20-90
    Last edited by DrTodd; 04-03-2011 at 04:30 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  11. #11
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    As a government entity, Amtrak is not a common carrier.

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    Regular Member StingMP9's Avatar
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    Problem Todd

    Your statement is wrong. Illinois doesn't recognize a Michigan permit at all. It doesn't recognize any other states permits. Check Handgunlaw.us
    "Reason can never be popular. Passions and feelings can become popular, but reason will always remain the sole property of a few eminent individuals."
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Who cares if AMTRAK's policy doesn't allow firearms?

    Last I checked, there is no metal detectors for AMTRAK. Put a gun in your laptop bag, no one will ever know.

    Does AMTRAK have the force of law behind their policy? Is it a crime to disobey AMTRAK's policy?
    What he said, no photo ID, no questions, just climb aboard the appropriate car (each car may have different destination's) and find a seat, so you could easily carry anything you want onto an Amtrak train. It's kind of reminiscent of the early 60's at the airports, no security, no one questioning you, just get on and find a seat.....

    On a side note with the costs of fuel, the train was cheaper (especially when you add the exorbitant parking fees in Chicago) , It's faster than driving, I could read and stretch out as their seat are far more roomy than the airlines, the ride was quiet and smooth, and I got to laugh at the traffic jam as we crossed the highway on the way home.....

    The issue for me was more the venomously anti gun Chicago. Didn't see any police on the beat, and where I had to go I was not sure how stringent their security was... N thanks for the ruling on knife length, I was not sure of how long was too long but was certain my Tactical spring assisted folder was on the no no list (and it was).

    Recently I read how the NRA kicked their rear in court only to have Chicago go and make up some new laws after the fact.... will that battle ever end????

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StingMP9 View Post
    Your statement is wrong. Illinois doesn't recognize a Michigan permit at all. It doesn't recognize any other states permits. Check Handgunlaw.us

    Nope you are wrong BC he is not talking about CC he is talking about possession. IL recognizes the MI CPL as proof that you can legally posses the firearm in question in your home state which makes it legal to posses in IL.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StingMP9 View Post
    Your statement is wrong. Illinois doesn't recognize a Michigan permit at all. It doesn't recognize any other states permits. Check Handgunlaw.us
    As Autosurgeon said, this concerns possession.

    65/2. Firearm Owner's Identification Card
    required; exceptions...

    (10) Nonresidents who are currently licensed
    or registered to possess a firearm in their resident state;



    And IL law dealing with concelaed carry has this nice exception


    Article 24. Deadly Weapons
    5/24-1. Unlawful use of weapons...

    (4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or
    concealed on or about his person except when
    on his land or in his own abode or fixed place of
    business any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser
    or other firearm, except that this subsection
    (a)(4) does not apply to or affect transportation
    of weapons that meet one of the following
    conditions:
    (i) are broken down in a non-functioning state;
    or
    (ii) are not immediately accessible; or
    (iii) are unloaded and enclosed in a case,
    firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other
    container by a person who has been issued a
    currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification
    Card;


    One could make the argument that an exception to the FOID card allows any one of the options listed. I tend to play it safe and have my pistol in a non-functioning state so that they can't say that I still need a FOID card to carry unloaded in a case; (the slide can be put on my Glock 23 frame in about 1 second). Then it doesn't need to be in a container nor unloaded. The ISP website lists "having the slide removed" as a "non-functioning state"

    What is broken down in a non-functioning state?
    The firearm is disassembled, making it inoperable, e.g., slide or barrel removed.

    see http://www.isp.state.il.us/docs/ptfire.pdf
    Last edited by DrTodd; 04-04-2011 at 09:59 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    What he said, no photo ID, no questions, just climb aboard the appropriate car (each car may have different destination's) and find a seat, so you could easily carry anything you want onto an Amtrak train. It's kind of reminiscent of the early 60's at the airports, no security, no one questioning you, just get on and find a seat.....

    On a side note with the costs of fuel, the train was cheaper (especially when you add the exorbitant parking fees in Chicago) , It's faster than driving, I could read and stretch out as their seat are far more roomy than the airlines, the ride was quiet and smooth, and I got to laugh at the traffic jam as we crossed the highway on the way home.....

    The issue for me was more the venomously anti gun Chicago. Didn't see any police on the beat, and where I had to go I was not sure how stringent their security was... N thanks for the ruling on knife length, I was not sure of how long was too long but was certain my Tactical spring assisted folder was on the no no list (and it was).

    Recently I read how the NRA kicked their rear in court only to have Chicago go and make up some new laws after the fact.... will that battle ever end????
    Ah.. the price of freedom. I would drive for my own protection.

    You do need to be worried about carrying on Amtrak because if/when the TSA nails you in one of their inspections, what would you do then? The purported savings in time, money, and peace of mind would certainly be eaten up in lawyer fees and jail time.

    BTW, notice these people are being checked as they EXIT the train at their destination.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcVl39Dcdno
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  17. #17
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    The German people learned a few things about those in authority of the trains too.

  18. #18
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    As a government entity, Amtrak is not a common carrier.
    In theory, maybe, but not in practice.

    Because Amtrak took over the common carry of people, they have been held to be a common-carrier. Even their own website talks briefly about this in their 5 year plan. (Do a search for Amtrak_Amtrak-Five-Year-Plan-FY2010-2014, link was too long to post)
    In the decision National Passenger Railroad Corp. v. United States, 431 F.3d 374 (DC Cir. 2005), the court states it is a common carrier;and also in Gilstrap v. Amtrak (1998).
    So, there is some precedent.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    In theory, maybe, but not in practice.

    Because Amtrak took over the common carry of people, they have been held to be a common-carrier. Even their own website talks briefly about this in their 5 year plan. (Do a search for Amtrak_Amtrak-Five-Year-Plan-FY2010-2014, link was too long to post)
    In the decision National Passenger Railroad Corp. v. United States, 431 F.3d 374 (DC Cir. 2005), the court states it is a common carrier;and also in Gilstrap v. Amtrak (1998).
    So, there is some precedent.
    Interesting. I'll have to look around and see if they publish a tariff schedule, as required of all common carriers.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    I use Amtrak regularly to travel to and from Michigan. And in probably 20 trips, I have never seen anyone get searched, and am yet to see a metal detector of any kind. However, their policy does state that no firearms of any kind will be allowed on the train, even in checked luggage. But with the way security is, a law abiding citizen may, or may not, have taken his or her firearm on a trip taken from one place to another........

  21. #21
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    I use Amtrak regularly to travel to and from Michigan. And in probably 20 trips, I have never seen anyone get searched, and am yet to see a metal detector of any kind. However, their policy does state that no firearms of any kind will be allowed on the train, even in checked luggage. But with the way security is, a law abiding citizen may, or may not, have taken his or her firearm on a trip taken from one place to another........
    As stated earlier they now allow transport of firearms as checked baggage. You have to follow the rules in regards to unloaded, etc...
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Ah.. the price of freedom. I would drive for my own protection.

    You do need to be worried about carrying on Amtrak because if/when the TSA nails you in one of their inspections, what would you do then? The purported savings in time, money, and peace of mind would certainly be eaten up in lawyer fees and jail time.

    BTW, notice these people are being checked as they EXIT the train at their destination.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcVl39Dcdno
    Now where was it that I read a story of the TSA at some train station searching people boarding trains and they were physically ejected by the station master......
    Can't rmemeber but it was about a week or two ago....


    ?????Mark me as confused, are some of you saying my MI CPL is valid in Chicago????
    Last edited by Sheldon; 04-05-2011 at 12:18 PM.

  23. #23
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    Now where was it that I read a story of the TSA at some train station searching people boarding trains and they were physically ejected by the station master......
    Can't rmemeber but it was about a week or two ago....


    ?????Mark me as confused, are some of you saying my MI CPL is valid in Chicago????
    NO!!! What we are saying is that the requirement for a FOID card does not apply to someone with a permit from Michigan. A person requires a FOID card to possess a firearm in Illinois. Illinois does NOT have concealed carry per se, but they do allow the transportation/possession of firearms under certain conditions.

    If you carry a firearm in MI, you MUST learn the difference between "carrying concealed" and "possession".
    Last edited by DrTodd; 04-05-2011 at 01:49 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    NO!!! What we are saying is that the requirement for a FOID card does not apply to someone with a permit from Michigan. A person requires a FOID card to possess a firearm in Illinois. Illinois does NOT have concealed carry per se, but they do allow the transportation/possession of firearms under certain conditions.

    If you carry a firearm in MI, you MUST learn the difference between "carrying concealed" and "possession"
    .
    Clairfied....

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    Thumbs up

    http://www.pjstar.com/free/x81685217...transport-guns.
    The above link should clear things up.
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

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