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I felt naked!!!

Sheldon

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
556
Location
Battle Creek, ,
Had to go to Chicago yesterday on business (Amtrack)...
Had to leave my HK, spare mags, and tac knife, behind and I Felt absolutely NAKED!!! All I could fudge in was my OCS and walking cane... I know a few tricks with that too, but then who brings a cane to a gun fight....
 

xmanhockey7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,195
Had to go to Chicago yesterday on business (Amtrack)...
Had to leave my HK, spare mags, and tac knife, behind and I Felt absolutely NAKED!!! All I could fudge in was my OCS and walking cane... I know a few tricks with that too, but then who brings a cane to a gun fight....

Law abiding citizens come unarmed to gun fights against criminals.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
Had to go to Chicago yesterday on business (Amtrack)...
Had to leave my HK, spare mags, and tac knife, behind and I Felt absolutely NAKED!!! All I could fudge in was my OCS and walking cane... I know a few tricks with that too, but then who brings a cane to a gun fight....

That's why I always drive ...
 
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Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
I just looked up the Chicago knife laws. Looks like 2.5" blades are the maximum length. Legally. Made me laugh, because the last time I was there I was 12 years old, which was 13 years ago, and I was carrying a 4" Buck.

Anyway, my opinion is that next time you should consider weighing the legal risks and personal benefits of taking a folding fighting knife of whatever kind you're most comfortable with that you can conceal. So long as you don't actually have to stab anyone A- no one will know you have it and B- cops don't generally care about people with knives who aren't being idiots or jerks, though of course you never knoe for sure with cops, and C- at mugging distance, a good knife in the hands of someone who knows how to use it is just as dangerous, and easily arguably more so, than a gun in the hands of an equally skilled user.

Of course, if you want to try my oddball options there are others. A micro torch and a bottle full of gasoline, a pop top water bottle filled with ammonia, or a nose spray bottle filled with ammonia, a framing hammer or hatchet with some other token tools in a duffel bag. A gun fight is not a gun fight, it is a fight. And the critically important rule of any fight is to be the first person with the most aggression. Or to put it another way you have to be as vicious as possible. Plus you have to know what you're doing.

About Amtrac, your lack of weapons and DrTodd's driving make me curious, do they now use metal detectors or something? I haven't been on an Amtrac since before 9-11, so I'm kind of curious what, if anything has changed about their security.
 
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TheGrabber

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Messages
44
Location
Huron County, Michigan
Amtrak

AMTRAK banned all weapons following 9/11, but in 2010, Sen. Roger Wicker, R-Miss., attached an amendment to a transportation funding bill that made $1.5 billion in Amtrak funds contingent on allowing train travelers to transport firearms in checked baggage. The Wicker Amendment passed the Senate by 68 to 30.

So effective on December 15, 2010, Amtrak will accept reservations of firearms and ammunition for carriage between Amtrak stations and on Amtrak trains within the United States that offer checked baggage service.

Unfortunately for us in Michigan, The Bluewater, Wolverine, and Pere Marquette trains do not have checked baggage.:cry:

Here is a link to Amtrak's weapon policy http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am/Layout&cid=1248542758975



BTW: Amtrak's site says no firearms or ammunition in carry on baggage, only checked baggage, BUT I see nothing that says about carrying on your person, but that's another can of worms.


AMTRAK SECURITY MESSAGE:
Amtrak, along with the Amtrak Police Department, has a range of behind-the-scenes and front-line security measures in place to ensure passenger rail security.

Among these security measures, some of which are conducted on an unpredictable or random basis, passengers may notice any of the following in stations or onboard trains:

* Uniformed police officers and Special Operations Units
* Random passenger and carry-on baggage screening and inspection*
* K-9 units
* Checked baggage screening
* Onboard security checks
* Identification checks

*With due respect to passengers' privacy, the random screening and inspection of passengers and their personal items will be completed as quickly as possible - usually in less than a minute. Passengers failing to consent to security procedures will be denied access to trains and refused carriage, and a refund will be offered.
 
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TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
Who cares if AMTRAK's policy doesn't allow firearms?

Last I checked, there is no metal detectors for AMTRAK. Put a gun in your laptop bag, no one will ever know.

Does AMTRAK have the force of law behind their policy? Is it a crime to disobey AMTRAK's policy?
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
AMTRAK banned all weapons following 9/11, but in 2010, Sen. Roger Wicker, R-Miss., attached an amendment to a transportation funding bill that made $1.5 billion in Amtrak funds contingent on allowing train travelers to transport firearms in checked baggage. The Wicker Amendment passed the Senate by 68 to 30.

So effective on December 15, 2010, Amtrak will accept reservations of firearms and ammunition for carriage between Amtrak stations and on Amtrak trains within the United States that offer checked baggage service.

Unfortunately for us in Michigan, The Bluewater, Wolverine, and Pere Marquette trains do not have checked baggage.:cry:

Here is a link to Amtrak's weapon policy http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am/Layout&cid=1248542758975



BTW: Amtrak's site says no firearms or ammunition in carry on baggage, only checked baggage, BUT I see nothing that says about carrying on your person, but that's another can of worms.


AMTRAK SECURITY MESSAGE:
Amtrak, along with the Amtrak Police Department, has a range of behind-the-scenes and front-line security measures in place to ensure passenger rail security.

Among these security measures, some of which are conducted on an unpredictable or random basis, passengers may notice any of the following in stations or onboard trains:

* Uniformed police officers and Special Operations Units
* Random passenger and carry-on baggage screening and inspection*
* K-9 units
* Checked baggage screening
* Onboard security checks
* Identification checks

*With due respect to passengers' privacy, the random screening and inspection of passengers and their personal items will be completed as quickly as possible - usually in less than a minute. Passengers failing to consent to security procedures will be denied access to trains and refused carriage, and a refund will be offered.

I am not an attorney, but it appears that under Federal Law, you must inform any common/contract carrier that a bag/package contains a firearm.

TITLE 18,PART I,CHAPTER 44 §922(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

So IMHO, according to Federal Law, you must inform the carrier.
As was stated above, Amtrak ONLY allows firearms in checked bagage and does not offer that service on MANY lines. That's why I would drive.

see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcVl39Dcdno

They are doing inspections as they see fit!

Now, IMHO regarding Chicago's firearm law, two things are important: The law of the State of Illinois and of the City of Chicago.

1st, Illinois allows people from out of state to possess a firearm in Illinois IF they meet one of the exceptions for a FOID card. A permit to carry is listed as an exemption.

So, a person with a CPL holder may possess a firearm in Illinois under the same terms as a person with a CPL. How does a person with a FOID have to transport a firearm?
Well, the Illinois State Police say:

IF A non-resident Is Coming To Illinois
to hunt And would like to bring
their firearm, how do they Legally
Transport it?
Non-residents must be legally eligible to possess
or acquire firearms and ammunition in their state of
residence. It is recommended that in order to be in
compliance with all statutes, non-residents transport
all firearms:
1. Unloaded, and
2. Enclosed in a case, and
3. Not immediately accessible or broken down in a
nonfunctioning state.


The case is required because the Wildlife Code applied to your possessio.
see http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-5/atf-p-5300-5-illinois.pdf

If a person is just just bringing their firearm into the state and have a CPL, in order to comply with those statutes when transporting a firearm, it must be unloaded,enclosed in a case, by persons who have a valid Foid card/(CPL exempt) or broken down in a non-functioning state.

Chicago ONLY acknowledges firearms that are being carried under the exemption in Federal Law see section 8-20-90 http://mayor.cityofchicago.org/etc/...Responsible Gun Ownership-Ordinance7-1-10.pdf

But, it appears that if you drove through the city of Chicago and had as your "end-point" a place just outside of the city... perhaps a restaurant or staying overnight, you could possess in Chicago because your possession would be legal in that part of Illinois outside of Chicago. But, Chicago does say that you can only stay in Chicago for a period less than 24 hours. see section 8-20-90
 
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Sheldon

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
556
Location
Battle Creek, ,
Who cares if AMTRAK's policy doesn't allow firearms?

Last I checked, there is no metal detectors for AMTRAK. Put a gun in your laptop bag, no one will ever know.

Does AMTRAK have the force of law behind their policy? Is it a crime to disobey AMTRAK's policy?

What he said, no photo ID, no questions, just climb aboard the appropriate car (each car may have different destination's) and find a seat, so you could easily carry anything you want onto an Amtrak train. It's kind of reminiscent of the early 60's at the airports, no security, no one questioning you, just get on and find a seat.....

On a side note with the costs of fuel, the train was cheaper (especially when you add the exorbitant parking fees in Chicago) , It's faster than driving, I could read and stretch out as their seat are far more roomy than the airlines, the ride was quiet and smooth, and I got to laugh at the traffic jam as we crossed the highway on the way home.....

The issue for me was more the venomously anti gun Chicago. Didn't see any police on the beat, and where I had to go I was not sure how stringent their security was... N thanks for the ruling on knife length, I was not sure of how long was too long but was certain my Tactical spring assisted folder was on the no no list (and it was).

Recently I read how the NRA kicked their rear in court only to have Chicago go and make up some new laws after the fact.... will that battle ever end????
 

autosurgeon

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2008
Messages
3,831
Location
Lawrence, Michigan, United States
Your statement is wrong. Illinois doesn't recognize a Michigan permit at all. It doesn't recognize any other states permits. Check Handgunlaw.us


Nope you are wrong BC he is not talking about CC he is talking about possession. IL recognizes the MI CPL as proof that you can legally posses the firearm in question in your home state which makes it legal to posses in IL.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
Your statement is wrong. Illinois doesn't recognize a Michigan permit at all. It doesn't recognize any other states permits. Check Handgunlaw.us

As Autosurgeon said, this concerns possession.

65/2. Firearm Owner's Identification Card
required; exceptions...

(10) Nonresidents who are currently licensed
or registered to possess a firearm in their resident state;



And IL law dealing with concelaed carry has this nice exception


Article 24. Deadly Weapons
5/24-1. Unlawful use of weapons...

(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or
concealed on or about his person except when
on his land or in his own abode or fixed place of
business any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser
or other firearm, except that this subsection
(a)(4) does not apply to or affect transportation
of weapons that meet one of the following
conditions:
(i) are broken down in a non-functioning state;
or
(ii) are not immediately accessible; or
(iii) are unloaded and enclosed in a case,
firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other
container by a person who has been issued a
currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification
Card;


One could make the argument that an exception to the FOID card allows any one of the options listed. I tend to play it safe and have my pistol in a non-functioning state so that they can't say that I still need a FOID card to carry unloaded in a case; (the slide can be put on my Glock 23 frame in about 1 second). Then it doesn't need to be in a container nor unloaded. The ISP website lists "having the slide removed" as a "non-functioning state"

What is broken down in a non-functioning state?
The firearm is disassembled, making it inoperable, e.g., slide or barrel removed.

see http://www.isp.state.il.us/docs/ptfire.pdf
 
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DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
What he said, no photo ID, no questions, just climb aboard the appropriate car (each car may have different destination's) and find a seat, so you could easily carry anything you want onto an Amtrak train. It's kind of reminiscent of the early 60's at the airports, no security, no one questioning you, just get on and find a seat.....

On a side note with the costs of fuel, the train was cheaper (especially when you add the exorbitant parking fees in Chicago) , It's faster than driving, I could read and stretch out as their seat are far more roomy than the airlines, the ride was quiet and smooth, and I got to laugh at the traffic jam as we crossed the highway on the way home.....

The issue for me was more the venomously anti gun Chicago. Didn't see any police on the beat, and where I had to go I was not sure how stringent their security was... N thanks for the ruling on knife length, I was not sure of how long was too long but was certain my Tactical spring assisted folder was on the no no list (and it was).

Recently I read how the NRA kicked their rear in court only to have Chicago go and make up some new laws after the fact.... will that battle ever end????

Ah.. the price of freedom. I would drive for my own protection.

You do need to be worried about carrying on Amtrak because if/when the TSA nails you in one of their inspections, what would you do then? The purported savings in time, money, and peace of mind would certainly be eaten up in lawyer fees and jail time.

BTW, notice these people are being checked as they EXIT the train at their destination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcVl39Dcdno
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
As a government entity, Amtrak is not a common carrier.

In theory, maybe, but not in practice.

Because Amtrak took over the common carry of people, they have been held to be a common-carrier. Even their own website talks briefly about this in their 5 year plan. (Do a search for Amtrak_Amtrak-Five-Year-Plan-FY2010-2014, link was too long to post)
In the decision National Passenger Railroad Corp. v. United States, 431 F.3d 374 (DC Cir. 2005), the court states it is a common carrier;and also in Gilstrap v. Amtrak (1998).
So, there is some precedent.
 

KBCraig

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,886
Location
Granite State of Mind
In theory, maybe, but not in practice.

Because Amtrak took over the common carry of people, they have been held to be a common-carrier. Even their own website talks briefly about this in their 5 year plan. (Do a search for Amtrak_Amtrak-Five-Year-Plan-FY2010-2014, link was too long to post)
In the decision National Passenger Railroad Corp. v. United States, 431 F.3d 374 (DC Cir. 2005), the court states it is a common carrier;and also in Gilstrap v. Amtrak (1998).
So, there is some precedent.

Interesting. I'll have to look around and see if they publish a tariff schedule, as required of all common carriers.
 

Tucker6900

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
1,279
Location
Iowa, USA
I use Amtrak regularly to travel to and from Michigan. And in probably 20 trips, I have never seen anyone get searched, and am yet to see a metal detector of any kind. However, their policy does state that no firearms of any kind will be allowed on the train, even in checked luggage. But with the way security is, a law abiding citizen may, or may not, have taken his or her firearm on a trip taken from one place to another........
 
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