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Thread: New Haven OC incident 4-2-2011

  1. #1
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    New Haven OC incident 4-2-2011

    Had an interesting little encounter with a rude officer in New Haven yesterday.

    Read more details here:

    http://www.withregardstorights.net/p...a-firearm.aspx

    I have full audio of the incident here:

    http://subtlehustle.org/NewHavenRude...t 4-2-2011.mp3
    Last edited by Rich B; 04-03-2011 at 12:00 PM.

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    Keep us posted. Good job

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    Cool

    That's classic. Good Job. Can't wait until my permit comes in

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    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Rich nailed it on the head.....

    "am I free to go"!

    That and "am I being detained?".

    Cover your sidearm. Shouting an order.

    Precious, really.

    New Haven is truly not gun friendly either!!!

    Is this the same recorder you used last time or are you using your phone?

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KIX View Post
    New Haven is truly not gun friendly either!!!
    I am not sure I have seen any evidence to support this claim. I know their permitting process is stupid (I am being kind), but this (sadly) is the best encounter I have had yet. He clearly knew he had no legal standing to stop me let alone ID me or arrest me.

    He may have been an arrogant and rude public servant who doesn't yet understand his place, but overall he was nothing more than any other ignorant/arrogant person in this world that thinks that crossing imaginary lines changes your rights.

    Is this the same recorder you used last time or are you using your phone?

    Jonathan
    Yes. Always with me, always on.

    FWIW, I don't believe a cell phone is useful for this kind of incident. This was a 30 second incident. I would have lost at least 50% of it even if I had remembered to turn it on.
    Last edited by Rich B; 04-03-2011 at 08:07 PM.

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    Carry ON, good sir!

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    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    I am not sure I have seen any evidence to support this claim. I know their permitting process is stupid (I am being kind), but this (sadly) is the best encounter I have had yet. He clearly knew he had no legal standing to stop me let alone ID me or arrest me.
    I'm looking at the whole picture. Permitting process, revocations from BFPE hearings, and legislation. Silly legislation is being spearheaded there as well, don't forget, they have "Looney".

    gun offender registry amongst other silly pieces of legislation. They had a "defective" testify and give seriously misleading information. When I testify, I use ethics, I don't use their tactics, but I'll clearly call them on BS when they spew it, and I have done so on a number of occasions this session.

    By far, I agree about this encounter. I find it even more funny that it was so brief - with the attitude!

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

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    Love that clip

    Great clip strait to the point!
    I have a question it appears to me through the inflection and tone on the tape , (again i wasn't there to witness the body language), that the officer regained his bearing or some type of paradime shift, after you asked him if you were being detained at that point he seemed to back off, like he got hit with a dose of reality!

    Do you feel the incident would have continued, & escalated if you diddent ask that question (am I being Detained & moved along), & say for instance started to give him a legal lesson in open carry?


    Again great clip it sounds like an overzealous public official trying to assert his opinion, that dident work this time.
    Last edited by Good Citizen; 04-04-2011 at 10:00 AM.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Superb job, A+++!

    Another high mark for posting the audio and transcribing it. Kudos.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Citizen View Post
    the officer regained his bearing or some type of paradime shift, after you asked him if you were being detained at that point he seemed to back off, like he got hit with a dose of reality!
    I would describe the look on his face more like 'shocked' and 'anger' with a bit of 'how dare you' and 'who do you think you are' sprinkled on top. The feelings were pretty mutual.

    Do you feel the incident would have continued, & escalated if you diddent ask that question (am I being Detained & moved along), & say for instance started to give him a legal lesson in open carry?
    I think it is a tricky situation. He was obviously angry and looking for a fight. He was trying to intimidate me and I wouldn't have been surprised if he had jumped out of the car and started through the whole detainment and ID process to make his point. I do think that in this case he quickly realized he wasn't dealing with someone who was going to comply with his unlawful order and was not going to be intimidated by him.

    I think we need to remember that the tactic of "Am I being detained?" "Am I free to go?" is a tool in our toolbox. I am really happy I finally had the wherewithal to finally apply it in the right situation and (in my opinion) in the right implementation. The officer was bluffing, I called his bluff. He had the choice to escalate or to leave before he started violating rights. As far as that goes, he made the right choice. The person walking with me expressed that they felt he knew that he was acting inappropriately and knew that he had better quit while he was ahead.

    So I don't feel that this same tactic can be applied in every encounter, but I do feel it can be applied in many encounters. Just be ready that this may escalate the situation rather than deescalate it. As always, be prepared to be put in handcuffs, disarmed, searched and possibly arrested. The word is out there, but there are always going to be rogue LEOs out there who don't wish to follow the law and would rather try to force their opinions on us. What we have going for us so far is that they haven't won a single case yet for charging people for OCing. Breach of peace and disorderly conduct are not valid charges for peaceable OC and they are starting to learn this.


    Carry on!

  11. #11
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    I think the key element in this latest incident is when you asked if you were being detained or free to go. His reaction was 'What!?'

    He seemed to realize that you were a knowledgeable person who knew their rights and he was not puzzled you'd ask because he felt he was just talking to you, but he was surprised you didn't cave and allow him to continue to "fish and badger".

    BTW, just curious - could he tell you were recording him?

  12. #12
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    BTW, just curious - could he tell you were recording him?
    I don't think there was any way for him to know. The recorder was in my pocket the whole time. I had to trim all the time we were walking before that off and about 15 minutes after it off because it didn't even occur to me it was recording at the time.

    Had it transpired any further, the person I was walking with was getting ready to start recording video.

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    Regular Member usamarshal's Avatar
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    haha....nice...you should have said Peace!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KIX View Post
    Rich nailed it on the head.....

    "am I free to go"!

    That and "am I being detained?".

    Cover your sidearm. Shouting an order.

    Precious, really.

    New Haven is truly not gun friendly either!!!

    Is this the same recorder you used last time or are you using your phone?

    Jonathan
    Kix,
    you need to rethink the thought that NH isn't gun friendly.

    Some higher ups in the NH PD have publicly said that OC is legal. (Check the Advocate article). Also clearly, this cop had been briefed on how to deal with OCers. He didn't like it, but he did comply. His "cover it up" is more pleading than an order.

    I think this encounter shows that the brass knows the law and has directed the rank and file to comply with the law. That the rank and file don't like the law is also evident here. But thats a minor issue.

    Imagine how the Old Saybrook situation would have differed if the rank and file knew OC was legal. It wouldn't have escalated to a half dozen cops standing around trying to figure out if they were going to arrest Rich.

    Don

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    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcmdon View Post
    Some higher ups in the NH PD have publicly said that OC is legal. (Check the Advocate article). Also clearly, this cop had been briefed on how to deal with OCers. He didn't like it, but he did comply. His "cover it up" is more pleading than an order.
    Right. I understand we have plenty of New Haven political figures that are not exactly rights friendly (not just on 2A issues, either). But this is the OCDO forum, and this thread is about OCing in New Haven. Many people have said there is no way NHPD would tolerate OC and that they wouldn't even try. I do it quite a bit (more and more with the warm weather rolling in). This is my first issue there and I cannot claim any of my rights were violated at all. I would call that a 'good first step'. To not give credit where credit is due and say that "New Haven" is not friendly to our rights is not completely correct in my opinion.

    We have to remember to deal separately with people who don't agree with us and people who infringe on our rights. Sen Looney may be a freedom hating person. So might Chief Limon. So might some of his assistants or all of them. The whole NHPD might feel that way in fact. That is unknown. But the facts right now are that they didn't violate any rights for me OCing. Give credit where credit is due. It will be a much better day when the officers know who their friends are and talk reasonably and politely to us instead of with anger and bewilderment. But that is going to take a lot more people and a lot more time. My opinion is that this is the right time to get out there and carry if you are not already doing so.

    Imagine how the Old Saybrook situation would have differed if the rank and file knew OC was legal. It wouldn't have escalated to a half dozen cops standing around trying to figure out if they were going to arrest Rich.
    Even more clearly, I believe OSPD wasn't trying to figure if they would arrest me, they were trying to figure some way to arrest me. The fact that they couldn't turn anything up to charge me with is a testament to how far we have come in a short amount of time.




    ...of course it could all be coincidental that the three major LEO encounters I have had have subsequently gotten better and better in their temperaments. I would like to think that the word is out and they are learning though...

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    Thumbs up

    God almighty, Rich!

    You can't go ANYWHERE without attracting 'fans'. Maybe this cop recognized you and thought '...oh s***, it's THAT f'n guy...!'

    You really need your own reality show.

    Well handled, though.


    mg

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    Had an interesting little encounter with a rude officer in New Haven yesterday.

    Read more details here:

    http://www.withregardstorights.net/p...a-firearm.aspx

    I have full audio of the incident here:

    http://subtlehustle.org/NewHavenRude...t 4-2-2011.mp3
    Last edited by MGoduto; 04-04-2011 at 02:45 PM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MGoduto View Post
    You can't go ANYWHERE without attracting 'fans'.
    To be fair, I have been OCing all over the state since about April of 2010 and have only had LEO interactions 3 times including this most recent incident.

    That is nowhere near as much attention as the nay sayers would have you believe that you would get for OCing in CT.

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    Rich,

    It seems pretty obvious to me that the brass understands that they may end up in a situation like the one Goldberg has created where they are being sued for civil rights violations.

    They've passed that down to the feet on the street.

    One are that people in CT need to be reminded is that CT is a totally free state when it comes to recording.

    There are no laws prohibiting audio and video recording. Neither knowledge or consent is requried to record.
    I have confirmed this with Deputy Attorney General Steve Sarnosky.

    The NHPD doesn't seem to get this. If you do intend to video record the NhPD, you should install the Qik.com app on your smart phone. It dumps your recording up to their site in real time. So even if the cops grab the phone and "lose" or destroy it, the video is safe.

    Don

  19. #19
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcmdon View Post
    The NHPD doesn't seem to get this. If you do intend to video record the NhPD, you should install the Qik.com app on your smart phone. It dumps your recording up to their site in real time. So even if the cops grab the phone and "lose" or destroy it, the video is safe.
    I intend to utilize the same techniques I have been using. Anyone recording video is free to do so, I don't have the ability to do so under detainment.

    The NHPD had the legality made very clear to them when they messed with the Yalies. I don't think they will repeat it, but if they do, they should expect lawsuits to fly.

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    Thumbs up

    Very Good RICH. you showed them again! CARRY ON!

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    This isn't an OC case but it's still interesting.

    A friend of mine was driving his car and got bumper tapped on his drivers door. The cops came, asked for ID from everyone, did the whole accident report thing. I gave them my drivers license and pistol permit. Before anyone asks, i gave them my permit out of courtesy because that is just what i usually do with police encounters, i know i was under no requirement to tell the officer i was carrying a gun. With that aside, my two friends and I were standing talking to the two officers for a moment while the officers where explaining to my friend about when he could get a copy of the accident report. I was standing fairly quietly next to them, hands in my pocket because it was chilly. All of the sudden the cop, a rookie judging by his appearance in age, he looked at me and slightly demanded, "take your hands out of your pocket". I looked at him and said "why?". His answer was because i was carrying a gun. I said to him, very politely "so are you and your partner". His answer to that was "We are cops". Without trying to be rude or anything i basically told that just because he is a cop does not mean i put my trust in him, i don't know him, i also told him that i was not breaking any laws by standing there with my hands in my pocket and thanks but no thanks, unless i'm being detained or am under investigation for something that it's chilly and i'm keeping my hands where they are.

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    Rich - The links at the beginning of this thread appear to be broken. Both to your web site and also to the audio.

    Status?

    Thanks,
    Don

    Nick - good for you. Thats great.

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    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcmdon View Post
    Rich - The links at the beginning of this thread appear to be broken. Both to your web site and also to the audio.
    Thanks, should be good now.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Could having a companion with you have had any influence on his decision to not continue the encounter? Kind of hard to confiscate a witness.
    I am not sure he knew there was anyone with me or not. The person who was with me didn't hear much of our exchange and had to listen to the recording to fill in the blanks.

    Having witnesses didn't change the minds of the officers in Wallingford or Old Saybrook either.

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    You present yourself nicely I'm I fumble with my words whenever stressed especially confronted with an officer.

    Thank you making my casual concealment easier.
    ~Justin

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