New Haven OC incident 4-2-2011

This isn't an OC case but it's still interesting.

A friend of mine was driving his car and got bumper tapped on his drivers door. The cops came, asked for ID from everyone, did the whole accident report thing. I gave them my drivers license and pistol permit. Before anyone asks, i gave them my permit out of courtesy because that is just what i usually do with police encounters, i know i was under no requirement to tell the officer i was carrying a gun. With that aside, my two friends and I were standing talking to the two officers for a moment while the officers where explaining to my friend about when he could get a copy of the accident report. I was standing fairly quietly next to them, hands in my pocket because it was chilly. All of the sudden the cop, a rookie judging by his appearance in age, he looked at me and slightly demanded, "take your hands out of your pocket". I looked at him and said "why?". His answer was because i was carrying a gun. I said to him, very politely "so are you and your partner". His answer to that was "We are cops". Without trying to be rude or anything i basically told that just because he is a cop does not mean i put my trust in him, i don't know him, i also told him that i was not breaking any laws by standing there with my hands in my pocket and thanks but no thanks, unless i'm being detained or am under investigation for something that it's chilly and i'm keeping my hands where they are.

Rich - The links at the beginning of this thread appear to be broken. Both to your web site and also to the audio.

Status?

Thanks,
Don

Nick - good for you. Thats great.

dcmdon said:

Rich - The links at the beginning of this thread appear to be broken. Both to your web site and also to the audio.

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Thanks, should be good now.

OC for ME said:

Could having a companion with you have had any influence on his decision to not continue the encounter? Kind of hard to confiscate a witness.

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I am not sure he knew there was anyone with me or not. The person who was with me didn't hear much of our exchange and had to listen to the recording to fill in the blanks.

Having witnesses didn't change the minds of the officers in Wallingford or Old Saybrook either.

You present yourself nicely I'm I fumble with my words whenever stressed especially confronted with an officer.

Thank you making my casual concealment easier.
~Justin

customcreationllc said:

You present yourself nicely I'm I fumble with my words whenever stressed especially confronted with an officer.

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Practice makes perfect?

Actually not NHPD?

There is a very real chance, more a likelihood, that your encounter was with the Yale University Police Department, and not the City of New Haven Department of Police Services.

The fact that the Officer in question came from theskating rink, Ingall's Rink, which is Yale University property. The fact that he mentioned youwere "on a college campus." These things make me believe it was in fact a YPD officer not NHPD.

Both agencies have cars that utilize a nearly identical paint scheme, making differentiation more difficult.

Don't get me wrong, any contact with LEOs that does not end with a violation of a citizen's rights is a good contact. I just don't want to believe this was NHPD as their own supervisors have told me directly it is the deprtment's policy/directive to detain individuals under these circumstances.

Fejrey616 said:

There is a very real chance, more a likelihood, that your encounter was with the Yale University Police Department, and not the City of New Haven Department of Police Services.

The fact that the Officer in question came from theskating rink, Ingall's Rink, which is Yale University property. The fact that he mentioned youwere "on a college campus." These things make me believe it was in fact a YPD officer not NHPD.

Both agencies have cars that utilize a nearly identical paint scheme, making differentiation more difficult.

Don't get me wrong, any contact with LEOs that does not end with a violation of a citizen's rights is a good contact. I just don't want to believe this was NHPD as their own supervisors have told me directly it is the deprtment's policy/directive to detain individuals under these circumstances.

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This was definitely New Haven PD. We walked past the car prior to this, and I had my head practically inside his window when I talked to him.

What officers/supervisors have told you that they would deprive a citizen of their 4th amendment rights for legal activity?

Rich B said:

This was definitely New Haven PD. We walked past the car prior to this, and I had my head practically inside his window when I talked to him.

What officers/supervisors have told you that they would deprive a citizen of their 4th amendment rights for legal activity?

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I actually work for them, have had this discussion with several rank and file up to Lt grade. Across the board they hold to the belief that it is Breach of Peace and would charge accordingly, some gave Disorderly Conduct as their choice of charge.

I belong to CCDL and have given them the Is This Legal pamphlet, opies of the statutes, etc. The Department stance is that they would prevail in court and feel that ultimately Wallingford will prevail also. They have also stated that Goldberg is not yet decided and will most likely, they feel, go against Goldberg.

As far as DPS asking to have the legislature make concealed a mandatory requirement, the Department feels that is just for clarification of what is already the statute. It needs to be clarified so that "people thta think incorrectly" like I do according to them, will be unable to bog down the system with these lawsuits.

Mind you I have not been actively discussing this topic lately, I have recently found other issues with the NHPD's understanding of our Gun Rights as well as some other rights issues. Specifically, a Detective, assigned to the Firearms Unit, telling me that Permit Holder information is Public Information and not protected under statute. I informed her of the 1994 (I believe) statute making CT Permit to Carry Pistolls and Revolvers information protected and she argued with me, despite my handing her a Hartford Courant Online article describing it and the Statute itself. She had to call DPS Firearms Unit and after a few minutes on the phone told me she would have to get back to me.

The NHPD is quite a bit off base as pertains to individual rights. It amazes me that they have yet to really pay the price in Civil Action.

Fejrey616 said:

and feel that ultimately Wallingford will prevail also.

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Prevail at what? Breach of peace charges and disorderly conduct charges both go nowhere. That was proven in both Goldberg's case and in my case. In Goldberg's case BoP was nolled, and in my case disorderly conduct was dismissed with 'no probable cause'.

If the police think that these arrests are somehow justified, then they might want to talk to the state's attorneys, because they clearly do not agree. They are just wasting their time and infringing upon people's rights while opening themselves and their departments up to lawsuits.

BTW - as always, I am going to have to ask for examples on names of officers who have made these statements.

As far as DPS asking to have the legislature make concealed a mandatory requirement, the Department feels that is just for clarification of what is already the statute. It needs to be clarified so that "people thta think incorrectly" like I do according to them, will be unable to bog down the system with these lawsuits.

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They should learn how to read then, there is nothing at all ambiguous about our state statutes.

Specifically, a Detective, assigned to the Firearms Unit, telling me that Permit Holder information is Public Information and not protected under statute. I informed her of the 1994 (I believe) statute making CT Permit to Carry Pistolls and Revolvers information protected and she argued with me, despite my handing her a Hartford Courant Online article describing it and the Statute itself. She had to call DPS Firearms Unit and after a few minutes on the phone told me she would have to get back to me.

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Give me her name, I would be happy to show her the statute as I have done with many other police officers in the past who leaked private information to the media. She is subject to penalties for leaking the information and I would be happy to be the one to inform the state's attorney.

The state police have admitted that they have no legal standing. They did so in their justification for a concealed carry law. I can't quote the language, but they said that all charges ever brought against anyone for open carrying have either been nolled or dismissed, thus proving the need for a CC law.

I'm sure Rich can direct you to the location of that documentation.

One other thing. Any attempt at arrest on public property by the Yale PD should be resisted up to and including deadly force. An arrest on public property by YPD is effectively unlawful kidnapping.

In 2008, a FOIA request was made for the personnel records of an arresting YPD officer in a case. The request was denied on the basis that the YPD was a private organization not subject to FOIA requests.

The defendant in the case then asked the State FOI Commission to render a decision. The State said that if the Yale PD wants arrest powers on public property then they need to turn over the docs.

They never did, thus admitting to being nothing more than a glorified security service.

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE. In 2009 the union representing YPD officers requested docs about the use of non-union employees. Again, the brass refused, maintaining that the YPD was a private entity.
So again, you must resist with all means necessary if an illegal arrest is ever attempted on public property by a YPD officer.

There you go. HUUUUUGGGEEE difference between YPD and NHPD.

Don

dcmdon said:

One other thing. Any attempt at arrest on public property by the Yale PD should be resisted up to and including deadly force. An arrest on public property by YPD is effectively unlawful kidnapping.

In 2008, a FOIA request was made for the personnel records of an arresting YPD officer in a case. The request was denied on the basis that the YPD was a private organization not subject to FOIA requests.

The defendant in the case then asked the State FOI Commission to render a decision. The State said that if the Yale PD wants arrest powers on public property then they need to turn over the docs.

They never did, thus admitting to being nothing more than a glorified security service.

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE. In 2009 the union representing YPD officers requested docs about the use of non-union employees. Again, the brass refused, maintaining that the YPD was a private entity.
So again, you must resist with all means necessary if an illegal arrest is ever attempted on public property by a YPD officer.

There you go. HUUUUUGGGEEE difference between YPD and NHPD.

Don

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Cite your sources when you get a chance please.

Rich, I should have finished with : Research this yourself before you take this to heart.

I'm going from memory. A quick google turned up a 2009 article referencing both incidents.
In 2008 I also sent a letter, registered , with a return receipt to the YPD chief asking if they were in fact a private entity.

I never got a response. But I do (did?) have the return receipt.

Don

http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2009/sep/24/yale-accused-of-violating-open-records-law/

dcmdon said:

http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2009/sep/24/yale-accused-of-violating-open-records-law/

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"the YPD has full law enforcement authority"

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I won't be questioning this authority until I see something more solid than this article and until I submit that evidence to an attorney for review.