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Thread: OT question about tax dollars for the illegal parks ban

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    Regular Member Aryk45XD's Avatar
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    OT question about tax dollars for the illegal parks ban

    Is there any accountablity for all of the tax money used to change the law against citizen's right to carry a firearm in parks? There must have been a lot of time, effort and money wasted in writing up a law and changing everything that should not have changed place in the first place. Then changing it all back. If the law banning guns was illegal in the first place, can the Mayor be charged any of the money used for our tax dollars wasted? If this has been covered before, please post a link.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    If you were to pull up most of the ordinances that "banned" firearms from parks, many of them pre-dated State Preemption.

    The question of wasted money was probably addressed back when the State passed "preemption" and all these local jurisdictions most likely decided to just leave everything in place rather than go to the expense of a special Code Revision. They'd deal with it as the issues came up and only recently has this occurred.

    Even thought the "laws or rules" are there it doesn't make them enforceable. Just like all those laws that might remain on the books that make selling a mattress on Sunday illegal, or requires someone to lead a motor vehicle with a flag by day or lantern by night, an unenforceable law is just that, unenforceable. To arrest and prosecute would just mean a major expense to the city/county. But then, so would replacing all those signs, just to remove one phrase.

    When I see the "no firearms" on a park sign I just smile and "Carry On". Haven't been challenged yet.

    A last note on parks, I WOULD like to see some vigorous enforcement of the Leash Law and Dog Crap laws though. Those regulations weren't preempted by State Law and also are present on almost all Park Rule signs.
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    The problem is, though, how many of those signs and ordinances are left in place intentionally to coerce the less informed public into complying with the local government's illegal wishes to control the citizen?

    Also, how many less informed citizens get tickets for violating the illegal ordinance and just pay it, not knowing the real law.

    Granted, I will say the responsibility partly falls upon the citizen to inform themselves.
    I would be interested in seeing some statistics on ACTUAL citations for carrying in a public park since preemption. I'm sure there have been cases where people have been stopped and told they can't carry according to the "sign" but how many citations have actually been issued where "less informed citizens get tickets" and "just pay it"?

    Is this a real problem or is it merely speculation on what MIGHT be happening?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Granted, I will say the responsibility partly falls upon the citizen to inform themse

    Ignorance of the law is no excuse! I believe this should work for LEOs and the Gen population. I am in the park system every day with my dogs (I carry poop bags all the time) and I have yet to hear a word from park officials. The one LEO I have seen in the park supported open carry. Live your life as normal(but with a weapon on your hip) and the sky will not fall.

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    This is where our schools fail. They should be teaching what is required to live in todays world and to be able to survive. There should be a mandatory law class.
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    Regular Member Aryk45XD's Avatar
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    Seems like our appointed officials should know the laws too. I'm not sure about citations given for carry in parks, but I know there have been some carry in public.
    I remember taking a firearm and hunters safety class in school. I also remember the Constitution, laws and real history being taught without just trying to memorize answers for placement tests. Guess I was just lucky

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    The problem is, though, how many of those signs and ordinances are left in place intentionally to coerce the less informed public into complying with the local government's illegal wishes to control the citizen?

    Also, how many less informed citizens get tickets for violating the illegal ordinance and just pay it, not knowing the real law.

    Granted, I will say the responsibility partly falls upon the citizen to inform themselves.
    NavyLT,

    This is a very salient point. Amleven, please do not blow this point off, but I do understand your reasoning and have agreed with it for years. However, I believe that the absence of correcting these type of park ordinances leads to what I have referred to as "serial misinformation". For anyone to allow it to continue unchecked, uncorrected leads to misinformation presented as fact. It must stop. Governments do this, the NRA does this, gun shops do this and they are all wrong.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    NavyLT,

    This is a very salient point. Amleven, please do not blow this point off, but I do understand your reasoning and have agreed with it for years. However, I believe that the absence of correcting these type of park ordinances leads to what I have referred to as "serial misinformation". For anyone to allow it to continue unchecked, uncorrected leads to misinformation presented as fact. It must stop. Governments do this, the NRA does this, gun shops do this and they are all wrong.
    I don't disagree with your point but isn't suggesting that people get "cited and just pay" without any factual basis just more "serial misinformation".

    I believe that the signs should come down and the ordinances cleansed. I would like to know just how many citations have actually been issued and then paid without protest before I buy off on that part of the argument.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Campaign Veteran Right Wing Wacko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    I don't see the relevance to this discussion. Or are the old ordinances OK to remain on the books, and the old signs OK to remain in place because it is a "victimless crime"?

    It it, or is it not possible for a cop to write a ticket to a guy because he sees the guy carrying a gun in a park against an illegal ordinance, the guy doesn't know any better so he pays the ticket and moves on?

    I don't know if it has happened or not since the preemption law went into effect.
    Yes, in fact, I beleive this happened in Bellingham a year or so ago, and one of our members caught it mentioned in the newspaper. I don't remember the final outcome

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    I don't disagree with your point but isn't suggesting that people get "cited and just pay" without any factual basis just more "serial misinformation".

    I believe that the signs should come down and the ordinances cleansed. I would like to know just how many citations have actually been issued and then paid without protest before I buy off on that part of the argument.
    Well, I didn't make the argument ("cited and just pay"). If just one person was cited and paid without contest, wouldn't that be enough?

    p.s. Navy responded as well...
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Wing Wacko View Post
    Yes, in fact, I beleive this happened in Bellingham a year or so ago, and one of our members caught it mentioned in the newspaper. I don't remember the final outcome
    They had to drop the case and the city Attorney warned the city council not to bother gun carriers and that Open Carry is perfectly legal. Uncoolperson had a linked video to that meeting but the website has since taken the video down.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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