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Why would anyone need to carry on a college campus?
- Thread starter Dreamer
- Start date
Resto Guy
Regular Member
More about the campus carry topic.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/0...nes-universities-unlikely-hero-nevada-woman/#
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/0...nes-universities-unlikely-hero-nevada-woman/#
Dreamer
Regular Member
CC on college campuses has been legal in Utah since 2006.
In that time, according to the official figures from the Utah Department of Public Safety, there has not been a single weapons-related crime reported on Utah campuses attributable to a lawful gun owner--no assaults, no suicides, no homicides, no brandishing, no threats, no AD/NDs, and not even a theft of a lawful firearm.
In fact, since 2006, incidents of robbery, assault, and sexual assault have been on a steady decline on Utah campuses.
But the "experts" all say there is no "reliable evidence" that shows CC on college campuses is safe, or a crime deterrent... :banghead:
In that time, according to the official figures from the Utah Department of Public Safety, there has not been a single weapons-related crime reported on Utah campuses attributable to a lawful gun owner--no assaults, no suicides, no homicides, no brandishing, no threats, no AD/NDs, and not even a theft of a lawful firearm.
In fact, since 2006, incidents of robbery, assault, and sexual assault have been on a steady decline on Utah campuses.
But the "experts" all say there is no "reliable evidence" that shows CC on college campuses is safe, or a crime deterrent... :banghead:
Dreamer
Regular Member
I attended the "Safety Symposium" today. It was largely disappointing, and partly creepy.
The 3 person panel focused mainly on situational awareness and intoxication-related crimes. They hinted in the intro that they would touch on CCC (campus Concealed Carry), because it has recently been in the news with the Texas and Florida legislative moves, but they never did address it.
I was rather disappointed, because I had bookmarked my copy of "Gun Facts", and had several relevant webpages bookmarked on my iPhone.
The "white paper" produced on the Florida CCC issue was predictably propagandistic. I was so put off by it that I spent most of the morning marking it up with notes about all the lies and misleading information it contained. By the time I was done, marking it up with corrections, citations to NIJ and BJS studies, and studies done by State LEAs proving the entire paper false, there was almost more red ink on the paper than laser toner. Unfortunately I never got a chance to address it, because they never addressed it...
The second part of the day was about "hiring practices" and strategies for vetting new hires in the university. The consultant was a company called QVersity, which was self-admittedly started by ex-CIA officers. I found it mildly ironic that ex-CIA officers were giving universities advice not to hire people who were deceptive. By their own standards, their company should not have been hired to give said presentation...
I attempted to talk to the author of the "white paper" during the break about the whole concept of "duty to protect" which came up over and over again in the panel discussion, but she tried to dodge my question by twisting it into a discussion about civil vs. criminal liability. After about 5 minutes of this, I finally thanked her for her time, and told her that our conversation was over, because I found it personally insulting that she would think I was so stupid that I would fall for such a brazen attempt at obfuscation of the issue, and I walked away.
You can't discuss this issue with people like this--When you ask for clarification they try to confuse you by changing the discussion parameters, and when you attempt to offer them REAL verifiable resources and citations, they just say that you are lying. Reason, logic, and rigorous scholarship is anathema to people like this.
Needless to say, I will be producing a marked up version of her "white paper", and posting it somewhere on the internet soon. She can try and spread this shoddy research, propagandistic speculation, and fear-based manipulation, but I see it as my duty as a graduate student at a major university to do everything I can to expose her duplicity, lies, and intellectual dishonesty.
The scary thing is that she is the Dean of a law school...
The 3 person panel focused mainly on situational awareness and intoxication-related crimes. They hinted in the intro that they would touch on CCC (campus Concealed Carry), because it has recently been in the news with the Texas and Florida legislative moves, but they never did address it.
I was rather disappointed, because I had bookmarked my copy of "Gun Facts", and had several relevant webpages bookmarked on my iPhone.
The "white paper" produced on the Florida CCC issue was predictably propagandistic. I was so put off by it that I spent most of the morning marking it up with notes about all the lies and misleading information it contained. By the time I was done, marking it up with corrections, citations to NIJ and BJS studies, and studies done by State LEAs proving the entire paper false, there was almost more red ink on the paper than laser toner. Unfortunately I never got a chance to address it, because they never addressed it...
The second part of the day was about "hiring practices" and strategies for vetting new hires in the university. The consultant was a company called QVersity, which was self-admittedly started by ex-CIA officers. I found it mildly ironic that ex-CIA officers were giving universities advice not to hire people who were deceptive. By their own standards, their company should not have been hired to give said presentation...
I attempted to talk to the author of the "white paper" during the break about the whole concept of "duty to protect" which came up over and over again in the panel discussion, but she tried to dodge my question by twisting it into a discussion about civil vs. criminal liability. After about 5 minutes of this, I finally thanked her for her time, and told her that our conversation was over, because I found it personally insulting that she would think I was so stupid that I would fall for such a brazen attempt at obfuscation of the issue, and I walked away.
You can't discuss this issue with people like this--When you ask for clarification they try to confuse you by changing the discussion parameters, and when you attempt to offer them REAL verifiable resources and citations, they just say that you are lying. Reason, logic, and rigorous scholarship is anathema to people like this.
Needless to say, I will be producing a marked up version of her "white paper", and posting it somewhere on the internet soon. She can try and spread this shoddy research, propagandistic speculation, and fear-based manipulation, but I see it as my duty as a graduate student at a major university to do everything I can to expose her duplicity, lies, and intellectual dishonesty.
The scary thing is that she is the Dean of a law school...
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sultan62
Regular Member
Perhaps consider posting it around campus as well?
JoeSparky
Centurion
Here is the actual statute.... You tell me after reading it.....
BTW 53-5-704 is the UTAH Statute that authorizes conceal carry with the permit.
http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_050505.htm
76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
(1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).
(2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
(b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
(3) This section does not apply if:
(a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
(b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
(c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
(d) the possession is:
(i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
(ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
(iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
(4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.
Utah Code 53-5-704 ALLOWS concealment but does not require concealment!
JoeSparky
Centurion
JoeSparky
Centurion
Please see post #26 in this thread! OPEN CARRY on or about a UTAH public college or university in UTAH IS LEGAL FOR anyone with a permit!
M
mattwestm
Guest
I wish I could have been there. I was planning on leaving work around noon and heading up there, but we always seemed to get swamped with help tickets on Fridays.
M
mattwestm
Guest
I got about 5 emails from ECU about the tornado warning. I also got 4 phone calls from their warning system. Only problem is that during the first call, I only heard half the message. The other calls immediately hung up as soon as I answered. <sarcasm>It's nice to know that we have a fully functioning alert system in the event of a campus shooter.</sarcasm>
It would suck to get a call saying "...reported on campus 5 minutes ago." instead of "there was an active shooter reported on campus 5 minutes ago." This system gives me a lot of faith in my school to provide me with security in the event of an emergency :banghead::banghead::banghead:
It would suck to get a call saying "...reported on campus 5 minutes ago." instead of "there was an active shooter reported on campus 5 minutes ago." This system gives me a lot of faith in my school to provide me with security in the event of an emergency :banghead::banghead::banghead:
Dreamer
Regular Member
I missed the first call and it did not leave a message. Picked up the second, and hear about half the message before it disconnected. The third time, it hung up as soon as I picked up. Only on the fourth message did I hear enough of it to figure out what it was about...
And the texts were going out with so much lag that they were talking about the weather conditions about an hour AFTER they had passed...
Yeah, gives me great confidence in our "Campus alert" system...
Bu tat least they are sending out messages--even if they are 20 or 30 minutes behind the actual event. I mean they could "VT" us, and just not tell anyone that ANYTHING was happening until it was all completely over and done with...
Unless you specifically know it was the system having problems you might want to check into the possibility that it could have been a problem with your mobile carrier. Anytime there is a event like this it places a strain on the system. Then include the fact its sending this out to I dont know how many students, teachers, etc at one time. Each tower site only has so much ability to push things.
There are a lot better arguements out there for campus carry but this isn't one of them.
There are a lot better arguements out there for campus carry but this isn't one of them.
M
mattwestm
Guest
Weird, I never got any of the text messages.
WTFOVER: Although the weather has nothing to do with a campus shooter, it does show us how buggy their alert system is. If a shooter were on campus, I would want a text message or email about it immediately so I could go home. Getting one 20 or 30 minutes late might be too late for me! If VT had properly notified their student, I'm sure many of them would have left campus for the day instead of staying around. Basically, this shows how each and every student should be responsible for their own safety and security and not rely on campus police or a buggy system. It's kind of hard to be secure on campus if I am disarmed (although having a working alert system would be beneficial).
I've talked to friends with US Cellular and Sprint and they both got the text messages late and the voice calls cut off. I have T-Mobile and I received no text messages and partial voice calls. I hope someone on campus knows about the system being a little buggy.
There again, I would bring up the concern about the system, however I wouldn't place all the blame on the system itsself. I would have to look and see what towers are closest to ECU, but I'm guessing there is atleast one major carrier tower for each major carrier. Now, most cell towers have a T1 line going to the tower to carry the traffic. When you start sending multipy text, phone calls, emails to every cell deivce that is connected to that tower it doesn't take long for it to overwhelm the system. Samething happened at 9/11, Katrina and the same would have happened at VT.
buzzsaw
Regular Member
Hey over, I think you just made the case for the guys arguing against the system. Personal responsibility trumps any "everybody run and hide" scenario that starts with "wait till we notify you".
Dreamer
Regular Member
And I got texts and robo-calls, but no emails... Weird...
I have AT&T as my cell carrier, and I had the same issues with my messages. Some, I only got the last half of the message, some just disconnected as soon as I answered, and some were nearly complete, but cut off at the end. If I had not signed up for the text service, I would never have known. From my studio, (which has a HUGE south-facing window) it just looked like a REALLY windy spring thunderstorm...
And let's not forget the outcome of the "active shooter exercise" that GPD, Campus Police, PCSO and NC SBI held right before the beginning of the fall semester last August. It took nearly 12 minutes after the first 911 call for the first responders to get a coordinated force assembled on campus. It took nearly 2 hours for first responders to locate and render aid to the first "victims". And thir crowning glory--it took over 5 hours to "secure" the "shooter", who never left the building he was reported in, in the original 911 call...
By the time the assembled LEAs had actually arrived, assembled their force on campus, and located their first "victim", nearly EVERY school shooting in history would have been over and done--Columbine, VT, the Amish School shooting, etc...
I know the statistics. I know the timelines. I know how emergency response plans work.
And because of this, I have absolutely NO faith in the ability of local LEAs to "protect" me in such a situation.
Combined with the fact that they are under no duty or legal obligation to protect me as an individual, I think it's pretty much a no-brainer that I should be able to protect myself with my own skills and tools, anywhere I am--including on school property...
I find it a personal attack on my integrity, honor, and intelligence that the Federal government and my State Legislature says, in effect, that I (and all other non-LE gun owners) mysteriously become untrustworthy, sociopathic madmen the second they step over some imaginary property line onto school property, but we CAN carry almost anywhere else...
TrailRunner
Regular Member
I thought the procedure in an active shooter was to CTE (Close to Engage) with whatever force immediately available upon contact, and not wait for backup or to shore up the perimeter first. Why did they wait so long to engage?
What campus was this? Any literature on this exercise?
UNCG has very little material on an active shooter scenario.. A little video on the UNCG Police website which advocates running and hiding and self defense as an absolute last resort..
M
mattwestm
Guest
This is ECU. They did the exercise last summer and I can't find any information at all. I don't even think they've released a video for students and staff. I guess their official stand is "you'll be notified via text message or hear gunfire."
It seems we are turning into a nation of convenience. It's more convenient to allow the TSA to search us then to disallow invasion of personal space. It's easier to just run and hide instead of fighting back. I'm responsible for my own life, I should be able to protect it any way I see fit. Unfortunately hiding behind a desk isn't much of a protection.
Dreamer
Regular Member
Well, considering that SBI was the coordinating agency behind this training scenario, it's no surprise that the entire event was a colossal waste of time, resources, and taxpayer money, and the only thing we learned is that a large-scale coordinated response to an "active shooter" scenario is destined to be an EPIC FAIL every trip of the train...
I got all my information through firsthand observations during the course of the event, and through speaking directly to Sheriffs Deputies, Campus Police, and a few GPD offers I saw standing around at various stages of the event.
The local media covered it but gave no details. It was just one big, multi-hundreds-of-thousands of dollar feel-good session and a self-congratulatory photo-op for SBI.
Perhaps it's time for me to start filing FOIA requests on this event...
If there is ever an active shooter on campus, and I'm not killed, I will most likely be kicked out of school, because although I obey the law and don't carry on campus, I DO carry LE-grade pepper spray, and I know where all the good "art school tools" that can be used as improvised weapons are in the building and all the other grad student's studios. I may not be able to shoot back, but that doesn't mean that I (and most of the other "awake" grad students) are completely unarmed.
In fact, quite to the contrary. MFA candidates are some of the most heavily armed people on campus, especially when we are in our own studios, Never underestimate an artist...
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TrailRunner
Regular Member
I keep a 40 fl/oz Klean Kanteen filled to the brim, with a foot long paracord loop through the metal cap. I figure that if I swing that hard enough at someone's head..