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Thread: Officer(s) need to be a better shot

  1. #1
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Officer(s) need to be a better shot

    Officer Involved In Shooting At 22nd, National

    http://www.wisn.com/news/27424567/detail.html

    If officers were such great shots as WAVE would say, why was this man not killed or even be in critical condition?



    Police are not trained to shoot, they are trained to apprehend.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

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    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    I grew up rite up the block from that place. I would say less then 150 meters. That is kinda sad.

    I have been complaining for years about the lack of training law enforcement receives. The sad truth is that in a combat situation, the average gun owner is far more accurate and less prone to injuring bystanders than the police.

    I have taken people who have little to no firearms experience and seen them outshoot many of the decade plus LE veterans that I have taught.

    Unfortunately, we live in a society that thinks that because someone has a badge, they are automatically some kind of super human shooter. And organizations like Jerri's Kids just perpetuate that myth to the point where even the poorly trained LEO's have that opinion of themselves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    I grew up rite up the block from that place. I would say less then 150 meters. That is kinda sad.

    I have been complaining for years about the lack of training law enforcement receives. The sad truth is that in a combat situation, the average gun owner is far more accurate and less prone to injuring bystanders than the police.

    I have taken people who have little to no firearms experience and seen them outshoot many of the decade plus LE veterans that I have taught.

    Unfortunately, we live in a society that thinks that because someone has a badge, they are automatically some kind of super human shooter. And organizations like Jerri's Kids just perpetuate that myth to the point where even the poorly trained LEO's have that opinion of themselves.
    While I believe you and am not hard pressed to do so, is there any documented evidence for it? I've been looking for some to back up such a statement but haven't been able to find any.

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    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkshadow62988 View Post
    While I believe you and am not hard pressed to do so, is there any documented evidence for it? I've been looking for some to back up such a statement but haven't been able to find any.
    My statement is based on my personal experience as an instructor. But thanks to Captain For the reading material. I love finding stuff like this.
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    Take this with a grain of salt. Reliability factor???

    http://extranosalley.com/?p=185

    edit: and this
    Cato Policy Analysis No. 284 (http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=1143&full=1) by Jeff Snyder states the cops are 11 times more likely to shot the wrong person than a "civilian."*

    from: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-388935.html
    Last edited by phred; 04-05-2011 at 10:13 AM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    I wrote this nearly a year ago for another forum, but it fits very well with this discussion.

    Law Enforcement Qualification
    I recently had the misfortune of being invited as a "Guest Instructor" to the qualification range of a police department here in Wisconsin. This came after long talks with the head instructor for this department about firearms, training, and qualification standards. Now, I am not a cop, but I have been through most of the training that they go through.

    While at the range, I noticed a few things that really made me angry. For starters, their equipment (Including the glock 23s) was in terrible shape. There was one officer that had a firing pin that jammed all the way out after every shot, and the primer on the follow up round knocked it back into place. This was met with an "Thats nothing to worry about" attitude. If that was not bad enough, all of the officers had new polo's, and hoodies, and things of that nature. They even made it a point to hand out new screen printed glasses with the department logo on them. (I have one that now sits on the back of my stove with bacon fat in it, no pun intended) As a business owner, I can tell you that embroidered and screen printed promo items are not all that cheap.

    Then I helped count up scores, and at the end of the day there were several officers that had failed miserably with their standard duty sidearms, and their squad weapons (870, and AR-15). Not that I could imagine how someone could possibly fail to qualify with a 12 ga at 7 yards, but I just shook my head and kept looking over scores. So instead of putting a black mark on their record and making sure their training was up to standard and then making them re-qualify, they were set out on the firing line again, and all of them shot the course of fire again without even cleaning their weapons. after 3 officers (of a 12 officer department) failed several times that day, they were sent to the range house to clean their weapons so that they could come back the next day and fire the course again. No training, no nothing. One of the officers that was "Instructing" brought out his AR, and we popped a few rounds off at a clay pigeon at 100 yards. But that was interrupted by an officer coming up and asking how to clean his weapon.

    I proceeded to show him how to field strip his gun, and when I got the slide off it looked like it had mud and molasses inside of it. (I was so horrified and impressed that the gun still functioned that it made me want a Glock) And this officer who worked the road alone asked me what he needed to do to clean it.

    I returned the next day to see how things turned out with this guy, and I realized that he was scared of his guns. I watched his eyes snap tightly closed with every round he fired (12 GA, .223, and .40). He jumped sharply and jerked the trigger, I was truly amazed that this guy hit the target at all, and after trying to qualify 3 more times for a grand total of 7 times, he finally passed.

    Maybe I am picky, but I know for a fact that every criminal justice school in America teaches you about the use and care of firearms. And I know for a fact that every branch of the military does the same thing. So I am wondering if this kind of "Qualification" is standard practice.

    It seems to me that something like that is nothing more than gambling with the lives of the people that are supposed to be at the front of the pack with things like this. I mean I have known for a long time that LE qualification standards are a bit lax, but this is ridiculous. This is the kind of thing that gets innocent people killed. And it really makes for a bigger concern if you ever have to call 9/11 and tell them that you just had to defend yourself. Or even have to have police contact while you are carrying. This is frickin scary man...............
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    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    I wrote this nearly a year ago for another forum, but it fits very well with this discussion.

    Law Enforcement Qualification
    I recently had the misfortune of being invited as a "Guest Instructor" to the qualification range of a police department here in Wisconsin. This came after long talks with the head instructor for this department about firearms, training, and qualification standards. Now, I am not a cop, but I have been through most of the training that they go through.

    While at the range, I noticed a few things that really made me angry. For starters, their equipment (Including the glock 23s) was in terrible shape. There was one officer that had a firing pin that jammed all the way out after every shot, and the primer on the follow up round knocked it back into place. This was met with an "Thats nothing to worry about" attitude. If that was not bad enough, all of the officers had new polo's, and hoodies, and things of that nature. They even made it a point to hand out new screen printed glasses with the department logo on them. (I have one that now sits on the back of my stove with bacon fat in it, no pun intended) As a business owner, I can tell you that embroidered and screen printed promo items are not all that cheap.

    Then I helped count up scores, and at the end of the day there were several officers that had failed miserably with their standard duty sidearms, and their squad weapons (870, and AR-15). Not that I could imagine how someone could possibly fail to qualify with a 12 ga at 7 yards, but I just shook my head and kept looking over scores. So instead of putting a black mark on their record and making sure their training was up to standard and then making them re-qualify, they were set out on the firing line again, and all of them shot the course of fire again without even cleaning their weapons. after 3 officers (of a 12 officer department) failed several times that day, they were sent to the range house to clean their weapons so that they could come back the next day and fire the course again. No training, no nothing. One of the officers that was "Instructing" brought out his AR, and we popped a few rounds off at a clay pigeon at 100 yards. But that was interrupted by an officer coming up and asking how to clean his weapon.

    I proceeded to show him how to field strip his gun, and when I got the slide off it looked like it had mud and molasses inside of it. (I was so horrified and impressed that the gun still functioned that it made me want a Glock) And this officer who worked the road alone asked me what he needed to do to clean it.

    I returned the next day to see how things turned out with this guy, and I realized that he was scared of his guns. I watched his eyes snap tightly closed with every round he fired (12 GA, .223, and .40). He jumped sharply and jerked the trigger, I was truly amazed that this guy hit the target at all, and after trying to qualify 3 more times for a grand total of 7 times, he finally passed.

    Maybe I am picky, but I know for a fact that every criminal justice school in America teaches you about the use and care of firearms. And I know for a fact that every branch of the military does the same thing. So I am wondering if this kind of "Qualification" is standard practice.

    It seems to me that something like that is nothing more than gambling with the lives of the people that are supposed to be at the front of the pack with things like this. I mean I have known for a long time that LE qualification standards are a bit lax, but this is ridiculous. This is the kind of thing that gets innocent people killed. And it really makes for a bigger concern if you ever have to call 9/11 and tell them that you just had to defend yourself. Or even have to have police contact while you are carrying. This is frickin scary man...............
    And to think, I am the one that "needs training"...

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    I recall a story from a few years ago about 2 State Troopers (Utah??) who were fired on by two men from both sides of an SUV they stopped. Between them they fired 32 rounds and DIDN'T EVEN HIT THE SUV!!

    Also, I've been shooting IDPA for about 15 yrs now; the only 2 people I've seen asked to leave the range and don't come back were both cops!
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    12 children killed in Brazil school shooting

    http://www.sheboyganpress.com/articl...81&located=rss

    It was the worst school shooting in Brazil and would have been deadlier if the gunman had not been shot in the legs by a police officer, who said the man then fell down some stairs and shot himself in the head.
    Had the teachers or students been able to defend themselves, there would be less deaths here. The officers certainly didn't hit him in the right spot (I know there is a major artery in the leg that will lead to bleeding out), but center mass would have been better.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

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    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronS View Post
    And to think, I am the one that "needs training"...
    That is all dependent on who you talk to. If you were talking to Bender, or the anti's, or even the cops, that is what they say. But if you talk to a guy like me, I say we all need training (Including me), but nobody more than those in LE.

    Like the studies say, a LEO is 11 times more likely to hit an innocent bystander. Sure makes me feel safe.
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    Most LEOs arent gun guys to begin with. Many don't practice enough to stay proficient all year long. When they do use their guns in actual situations, this often shows.

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    I haven't practiced in some months now other than using some raccoons in traps for the 10-15 foot "challenge" of the accurate "put to sleep" head shot with a .22 revolver. Soon though I will be doing the golfball challenge and the "what does this hollowpoint do to this hunk of meat?" tests. It seems that my ability to continue to shoot with the same accuracy does not go away if I am idle for a few months. Sometimes I get flinchy with the 9mm and the .40, but when I concentrate on NOT flinching, I ain't so bad at all.

    One time I hadn't done any shooting in a while, and was at a hunting club outdoor range with a guy who is a member. It was a bit chilly that day and I hate the cold, plus it was cloudy and that ugly gray dark color, in which I have more trouble seeing clearly in. However I did this rapid fire 15 round mag dump with the 9mm ( XD9sc) at about 30 feet and stayed within an 8" circle on all shots. I'd never done such a good bunch of shots before. All the while this other guy I know who also is a member there had come by and was watching me. I am always nervous when I shoot with anyone, but was feeling a bit more so with this one guy watching me. All that macho stuff oozes out of guys like this LOL, makes me a tad edgy. I was amazed at that mag dump, and the 2nd guy was like "woah, remind me not to mess with her!" LOL

    The only thing I can guess on all these bad shot cops who don't know their own guns is that they simply are not "gun people", and certainly not avid hunters either. It really is a shame, and you can blame the anti gunners for it too. They make even some kid who dreams of being a cop be ashamed of the shooting sports- and it goes back to their parents too- so that kid gets nothing till he/she gets into the academy, and the fear of guns is still so ingrained in them that they cannot even cope with it after becoming a cop. I saw this in that show " The Academy" where they train for LAPD. Some of the cadets seemed to be scared of the guns and they could not pass the qualifications even after getting some extra training time.

    Funny thing is that I was not raised around guns or gun people and was pretty much scared of guns, but came into the interest all on my own starting at about age 17. I could not wait to go out the first time I was invited to a range. I even had already memorized and understood all the safety rules beforehand. Plus I knew about everything there is to know about the Uzi LOL. Don't ask me too many questions now, it's been a long time and I don't recall it all. Major Uziel Gal invented it in 1950 in Israel, it is a select fire submachinegun in 9x19 ( originally). The orginal had a solid wood stock, the newer with the rectractable stock is 18" long and weighs a bit over 8 pounds( loaded or unloaded????), the standard mag is 32 rounds, it has a grip safety...LOL

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    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    I don't think it is so much about whether the cops are "Gun Guys/Gals" as it is most people feed into the idea that the badge automatically makes them an expert. I don't know how many times I have heard statements like "Yea, I can shoot, I'm a police officer" when teaching a course.

    It seems to me (professionally speaking) that the concept of shooting being a perishable skill is lost on many people, but seems to be a completely foreign concept to most law enforcement.

    Another significant part of that is those LEO's that are prior military. They always talk about having shot XXXX while they were in the Army (so to speak). Though they always fail to mention that the qualification they speak of was 10+ years ago, and since then they have only shot for qualifications once every 6 to 12 months.

    The LE curriculum never speaks of the importance of constant practice.

    When it comes to firearms training there is a very short constant level of performance. You are either increasing or decreasing in skill level a majority of the time. Having learned something and never practicing it is a lot like riding a bicycle, if you do it all the time you are always getting better. If it has been a while since you were on a bike, you are always a bit shaky for the first little bit.
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    Re: Officer(s) need to be a better shot

    If you need more evidence, go to Shooters on 6 mile rd in Racine and count all the holes in the ceiling where the LEO's do their training.
    Last edited by oak1971; 04-13-2011 at 04:02 AM.
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  16. #16
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    this thread makes me feel better, at least i know that if i tangle with an over-zealous cop, and he shoots at me, he'll probably miss. i bet the criminals figured that out too.

  17. #17
    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    I have faith that I will survive for at least the first magazine.
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    Comparing police and non-police shootings is usually problematic. It's not fair to conclude that police are less competent shooters based on the statistics alone. The circumstances in which police find themselves that lead to shootings tend to be of a different sort than the circumstances of non-police. Police are involved in vehicle stops, clearing unknown buildings and areas, responding to domestic situations or other fights, and the pursuit and apprehension of suspects. These are hazardous activities that non-law enforcement people seldom encounter, but are potentially faced by police on a daily basis.

    Some police are very proficient and well-trained with firearms and some aren't particularly strong in that area. The same thing holds true with non-police and also from what I observed among military personnel. No one group holds a monopoly on skill or lack of skill and I wouldn't judge a person's abilities based upon which of these groups (police, military, non-LEO civilian) they belong. I'd base it on the individual's capabilities. If you took a random selection of 99 people-- one-third military, one-third law enforcement, and one-third gun owning civilians-- I would not assume the best shooters are going to necessarily come from any one of the three groups.

    I don't think it's necessary that every cop be an expert with a gun. The amount of money and time alone required to achieve a high level of expertise by all police would be prohibitive.

    Most police won't be involved in a shooting ever, many may never draw their firearm outside of training or qualification. There's much more to being a good cop than firearms proficiency. Police carry guns for the same reason we do: to protect their own life and the lives of others. Everything else equal, greater proficiency enhances one's odds of prevailing in an armed encounter. But there are no guarantees.

    No conclusion about the cop's shooting proficiency can be drawn from the information in the article about the hardware store shooting. There are too many unknown variables including the distance involved, the amount of movement by the suspect and the cop, how clear was the field of fire, how much warning was involved, where the rounds hit. You have to remember that handguns are comparatively weak compared to a shotgun or rifle, and the majority of people who are shot with a handgun survive. The threat was stopped, even with non-life threatening wounds. Stopping the threat without an innocent person getting hurt in the process sounds like a complete success to me.
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Agreed Shotgun, but the point of this thread is to show that even though they are police, they do not always shoot better. Quite often, they are worse.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  20. #20
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    oh, you guys are making me feel real good here............

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    Regular Member LR Yote 312's Avatar
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    I like dead criminals as much as The Nuge or the next guy.
    Dead criminals arent usually a burden on the taxpayer.

    I also see the other side of the coin too.

    Just because the criminal was shot and lived,doesnt necessarily mean the
    cop was a poor marksman.
    The officer may have chosen to take a less than lethal shot that was just as
    effective to remove the threat.

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    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    The use of a firearm is supposed to be a last resort. I understand that part, that is why all cops have Tazers now. However, the training that I provide to the officers I teach is free because I have seen that the officers I offer free courses to are on average 60% less effective than the civilian students.

    Granted no instructor can effectively simulate "Comat Stress", however that aside, the time that departments spend getting officers ready for potential threats needs to be increased.

    With many instructors offering discounted training for LEOs as well as mandatory requirements and staff firearms instructors, the overall cost should be a minimum. I have seen first hand that many departments scramble officers to training that is less imparative for public safety. And all of this is at the end of the training season.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    I have been complaining for years about the lack of training law enforcement receives. The sad truth is that in a combat situation, the average gun owner is far more accurate and less prone to injuring bystanders than the police.
    Although the average gun enthusists may be a better shot on paper, the average gun owner is less prepared to firing under stress than LEO or .mil. The Chai Vang incident is an excellent example.

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    Training doesn't matter in a real SHTF situation...

    It doesn't matter if you're the world's greatest shooter or handling a gun for the first time. Shooting paper is shooting paper. In the real world, being able to hit the paper isn't what's going to keep you alive.

    Will training help? Sure! But it doesn't magically get the job done.

    Here's an example of even a "highly trained" shooter couldn't hit his mark...

    http://m.naplesnews.com/news/2011/fe...ery-shot-back/

    VIDEO: Jewelry store owner exchanges gunfire with armed robbers in Naples

    By Naples Daily News staff report
    Updated Wednesday, February 9, 2011

    NAPLES — The owner of a defensive gun school in Fort Myers wasn’t about to let armed robbers outside his Naples jewelry store get away without a fight.

    So, when Sandy Thalheimer, owner of Thalheimers Jewelers, saw masked men speed off after robbing someone in his jewelry store parking lot Tuesday afternoon, he raced toward their car, rammed it with his truck and within seconds was in the middle of a shootout, taking on more than four men.

    “It is the first time I have ever had someone shoot at me and it is the first time I have ever shot back,” said Thalheimer, who has taught hundreds of people defensive shooting tactics at Sandy Thalheimer Defensive Gun School.

    Thalheimer had nothing at stake financially. Still, he risked his life to stop the armed men from leaving with the goods he believed they stole from the east coast-based jewelry salesman identified only as “Greg,” who was on a sales call at Thalheimer’s store.

    The suspects, however, eluded Thalheimer, making off with an undisclosed amount of jewelry. They managed to elude law enforcement by switching getaway cars twice.

    The masked suspects held up the jewelry delivery man about 2:30 p.m. in the parking lot at Thalheimers Jewelers, 3200 U.S. 41 N., according to the Naples Police Department. Police initially said they were looking for two suspects plus one getaway driver. However, Thalheimer said there were four people in the first car and at least two getaway drivers.

    Thalheimer said he was leaving the store in his truck to pick something up at 7-Eleven when he became suspicious of masked men speeding in his parking lot.

    The store owner took action, ramming the suspects’ black Ford Taurus sedan in the driver’s side with his white pickup truck. All of the air bags in the car deployed.

    Thalheimer planned to back away, but his truck was stuck, entangled in their car, he said.

    “At that point, I didn’t want to get executed sitting on my gun,” Thalheimer said.

    He got out of his truck.

    “There was nowhere to run. I had to deal with it,” he said.

    He and the suspects, who were also wearing bandanas, exchanged gunfire, Thalheimer said.

    Thalheimer fired all five rounds from the pocket pistol he keeps in his truck, he said. The culprits, he said, fired several more rounds, including gunshots that came at him from another getaway car across the street, he said.

    Thalheimer said he couldn’t describe the suspects because he was concerned more about shooting the armed men and avoiding being shot.

    “When someone is shooting at you, all you know is someone is shooting at you,” he said. “The first time I saw them they had masks on and the next time I saw them they were shooting at me.

    “You just react and you’re just doing it … I was looking at the front sights and thinking about the trigger.”

    No one was injured as a result of the shots fired, said Naples police Lt. John Barkley at the scene.

    However, Thalheimer said he wasn’t sure whether a bullet from his gun may have hit at least one of the suspects.

    There was no trace of blood reported at the scene.


    The suspects jumped into a red sport utility vehicle, then dumped it a couple of blocks south on Creech Road and got into a gray SUV, Barkley said.

    The suspects got away with three black bags of jewelry, including a duffle bag and two smaller black jewelry bags, in a getaway car that may have been driven by a Hispanic woman, he said.

    Fred Swetland, owner of Citisleeper, located in the shopping center across Ridge Street from the jewelry store, said he heard the gunshots.

    “I heard large caliber shots ... about half dozen of them,” Swetland said. “I ran out. Someone said ‘Don’t go over there!’ I’m ex-military. Hell, I’m going over there.”

    “It was a big boy,” he said of the gun, based on the sound of the gunshots.

    Upstairs from the jewelry store, attorney Steve Blount, of the Woodward, Pires and Lombardo law firm, said he heard four or five shots then saw two guys running across the street toward an orangish-red SUV that was “tearing down the street real fast.”

    They had hooded jackets on, he said. Possibly blue in color, Blount said as he held the leash to his black Lab named Major, who was in the office with him at the time the shots were fired. Blount saw the men run across the parking lot and into a field yielding guns, he said.

    “I was supposed to be walking in that field with Major,” Blount said, shaking his head side to side.

    As for the gun-toting, jewelry store owner, he was into racing sports cars before he became interested in handgun competition and training.

    Thalheimer, a nationally classified master shooter and president of the Naples Swamp Rompers Gun Club, told the Daily News about his two passions in a 2009 interview that also ironically encapsulates Tuesday’s events of shots being blasted and speeding getaway cars.

    “Shooting is like racing — the person who can go the fastest with the least amount of mistakes wins,” he said.
    Last edited by gollbladder13; 04-16-2011 at 11:29 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Lightbulb "Don't bring a popgun to a gunfight..."

    Quote Originally Posted by gollbladder13 View Post
    ....Here's an example of even a "highly trained" shooter couldn't hit his mark...http://m.naplesnews.com/news/2011/fe...ery-shot-back/
    I think it's more of an example of a highly trained shooter in the wrong place with the wrong WEAPON. If he'd had an AR in the gun rack or even a full-size semi-auto pistol with a longer sight radius, it might have turned out differently. "Don't bring a popgun to a gunfight...". Still, he had no business pursuing the alleged robbers; he was in no personal danger until he deputized himself.
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

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