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Thread: Clark County Library letter

  1. #1
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    Clark County Library letter

    I stole much of it from the BigGuy. This would go out to Executive Director - Jeanne Goodrich,Executive Assistant: Allison Boyer, Robb Morss - Deputy Director/COO

    Hello,
    My wife and I are Las Vegas residents and users of the Library system. We use the Rainbow branch nearly all the time. We are also lawful conceal carry weapon holders. We notice that your sign on the Rainbow door reads. No weapons. Per NRS 268.418 this only applies to concealed weapons not those carried openly as allowed here in Nevada. As you can see, this law refers to Conceal Carry Permittees only and does in no way apply to those who open carry such as me. I am not aware of any Nevada law restricting the open carry of firearms in such public buildings. I would like your assurance that as law abiding citizens we may carry openly without any harassment by your staff.


    This policy is in violation of state law as the State of Nevada has sole authority in this area. It has complete preemption excepting for the discharge of firearms within city limits.
    Please reference NRS 268.418 section 1 reads:

    “Except as otherwise provided by specific statute, the Legislature reserves for itself such rights and powers as are necessary to regulate the transfer, sale, purchase, possession, ownership, transportation, registration and licensing of firearms and ammunition in Nevada, and no city may infringe upon those rights and powers. As used in this subsection, “firearm” means any weapon from which a projectile is discharged by means of an explosive, spring, gas, air or other force.”

    In doing business at City Hall I noticed a sign on the doors that prohibit the possession of firearms within the building. The sign references NRS 202.3673 which reads:

    (b) A public building that has a metal detector at each public entrance or a sign posted at each public entrance indicating that no firearms are allowed in the building, unless the permittee is not prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of the public building pursuant to subsection 4.

    4. The provisions of paragraph (b) of subsection 3 do not prohibit:

    (a) A permittee who is a judge from carrying a concealed firearm in the courthouse or courtroom in which the judge presides or from authorizing a permittee to carry a concealed firearm while in the courtroom of the judge and while traveling to and from the courtroom of the judge.

    (b) A permittee who is a prosecuting attorney of an agency or political subdivision of the United States or of this State from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of a public building.

    (c) A permittee who is employed in the public building from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of the public building.

    (d) A permittee from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of the public building if the permittee has received written permission from the person in control of the public building to carry a concealed firearm while the permittee is on the premises of the public building.

  2. #2
    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    The first law referenced should be 202.3673. Way to go though, we all need to fight.

    TBG

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    Good catch I will fix that. Although the sign just says no weapons with the slash through the gun.

    I am going to dig up the old email to post here.

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    The old email from 2008 I got from them.


    From: Ask <ask@LVCCLD.ORG>
    Subject: RE: Conceal firearm policy
    To: yahoo.com
    Date: Sunday, October 19, 2008, 2:55 PM

    Hello Mr. W,

    Thank you for writing.

    All libraries are have notices posted that all firearms, concealed or
    otherwise, are prohibited in the library.

    Thank you for checking.

    Susan Williams
    Virtual Reference
    Virtual Library
    Las Vegas Clark County Library District
    www.lvccld.org
    (702) 734-7323 (main number)

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    OK here is the letter I sent.
    Hello,
    My wife and I are Las Vegas residents and users of the Library system. We use the Rainbow branch nearly all the time. We are also lawful conceal carry weapon holders. We notice that your sign on the Rainbow door reads. No weapons. Per NRS 202.3673 this only applies to concealed weapons not those carried openly as allowed here in Nevada. As you can see, this law refers to Conceal Carry only and does in no way apply to those who open carry such as me. I am not aware of any Nevada law restricting the open carry of firearms in such public buildings. I would like your assurance that as law abiding citizens we may carry openly without any harassment by your staff.


    This policy is in violation of state law as the State of Nevada has sole authority in this area. It has complete preemption excepting for the discharge of firearms within city limits.
    Please reference NRS 268.418 section 1 reads:

    “Except as otherwise provided by specific statute, the Legislature reserves for itself such rights and powers as are necessary to regulate the transfer, sale, purchase, possession, ownership, transportation, registration and licensing of firearms and ammunition in Nevada, and no city may infringe upon those rights and powers. As used in this subsection, “firearm” means any weapon from which a projectile is discharged by means of an explosive, spring, gas, air or other force.”

    NRS 202.3673 Reads.

    (b) A public building that has a metal detector at each public entrance or a sign posted at each public entrance indicating that no firearms are allowed in the building, unless the permittee is not prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of the public building pursuant to subsection 4.

    4. The provisions of paragraph (b) of subsection 3 do not prohibit:

    (a) A permittee who is a judge from carrying a concealed firearm in the courthouse or courtroom in which the judge presides or from authorizing a permittee to carry a concealed firearm while in the courtroom of the judge and while traveling to and from the courtroom of the judge.

    (b) A permittee who is a prosecuting attorney of an agency or political subdivision of the United States or of this State from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of a public building.

    (c) A permittee who is employed in the public building from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of the public building.

    (d) A permittee from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of the public building if the permittee has received written permission from the person in control of the public building to carry a concealed firearm while the permittee is on the premises of the public building.



    I look forward to your response and assurance.

  6. #6
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    And the response I have already got back.

    Thank you for your email. We are looking into this issue, a process which may take some time. We'll get back to you after our review.

    Jeanne Goodrich
    Executive Director
    Las Vegas-Clark County Library District
    7060 W. Windmill Ln.
    Las Vegas, NV 89113
    Phone: 702-507-6184
    Fax: 702-507-6187
    goodrichj@lvccld.org
    www.lvccld.org

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Good show...

    TBG

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    Not really sure what the next move should be. Maybe a follow up showing that the DMV understands the point? On another note I would be happy to pay the price to rent a room at the library for a couple of hours and provide snacks for a OC meetup. We would all OC of course. that would help them to push along and understand they can not deny our right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegassteve View Post
    And the response I have already got back.

    Thank you for your email. We are looking into this issue, a process which may take some time. We'll get back to you after our review.
    To which a good response is something like:

    "You have been advised of the law, including quotation and the NRS number with which to verify the information. You are the LIBRARY, you have the means to look up the law within seconds, and a reasonable person would assume that you have confirmed the information given within moments of receiving my message.

    "I have posted copies of my initial message and your response for other supporters of the library to see, and some of us will be peaceably and openly carrying firearms at branches in your system. Should any of us be subjected to any difficulty, it would be difficult for a librarian to argue that you were not aware of the law or incapable of comprehending the language used.

    "I advise that this 'review' be completed immediately and that all libraries and offices in your system be rapidly advised of the law and the liability to which you would be exposed for failure to comply."

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    Email response I just sent.


    Thank you for your prompt reply. This issue is being watched closely by several organizations here in Las Vegas and Nevada. The law is very clear on this issue. We do not see a reason that this should take some time. As you can see in the previous email the relevant NRS was given.

    As there are no state laws banning the open carry of firearms, and there are no statutes against carrying in
    city , county buildings or parks, then it is indeed legal and localities may not regulate otherwise.

    In 1995, the Attorney General of Nevada issued an opinion regarding preemption and noted that the state has ultimate power with regard to firearm regulation reserving only the discharge of firearms to local governments. It states that in all cases local ordinances are inferior to state law.

    Tom Jacobs, Chief Public Information Officer, Nevada Dept. of Motor Vehicles wrote this regarding a letter that had been sent to the State Department of Motor Vehicles concerning the same issue that I have written you about, in that local DMV offices had posted signs with a reference to NRS 202.3673. It was pointed out to them that this only covers permit holders and in no way limits the right of citizens to open carry. See the response below:

    “You are correct. We are in the process of changing the signs.”

    In addition there was lawsuit brought against the State of Nevada in which the A.G. Masto has now agreed not to enforce a prohibition against the carry of loaded firearms in state parks until such time as the state can take appropriate corrective action. http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010...da-state-park/ . The federal government has lifted its prohibition against the carry of firearms in US parks bringing them in line with the state laws in which they are located.

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    Nicely played...the only thing I was wondering as I read your letter was why you started by stating that your wife and yourself are concealed carry permit holders. It confused me for a second there as you proceeded to argue for the ability to open carry...the fact you have a ccw is irrelevant and almost seemed to give some non-existent authority to it.

    No biggy...I think you got your point across. Good job for stepping up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdholmes View Post
    Nicely played...the only thing I was wondering as I read your letter was why you started by stating that your wife and yourself are concealed carry permit holders. It confused me for a second there as you proceeded to argue for the ability to open carry...the fact you have a ccw is irrelevant and almost seemed to give some non-existent authority to it.

    No biggy...I think you got your point across. Good job for stepping up.
    I kind of thought that as well. My end thinking though was maybe it would help to show I am not just some wingnut that I did have some sort of extra validity. I am sure they already thought that I was a wingnut regardless.

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    Here is a pic of the sign on the rainbow lib door.
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    Regular Member LvstudentDoc's Avatar
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    this is one of those times where i put my gun in my backpack and just go about my business..they will never know and if there is an active shooter than their stupid policy is the last thing on my mind..sad but true.

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    snip. thinking.
    Last edited by wrightme; 04-26-2011 at 08:36 AM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by LvstudentDoc View Post
    this is one of those times where i put my gun in my backpack and just go about my business..they will never know and if there is an active shooter than their stupid policy is the last thing on my mind..sad but true.
    I mainly ccw and also don't worry to much, however it is important that we stand up for our rights.
    If we do not, we lose them.

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    Beware that carrying concealed past such a sign is a criminal act per 202.3673.

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    Regular Member LvstudentDoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felid`Maximus View Post
    Beware that carrying concealed past such a sign is a criminal act per 202.3673.
    rather be a criminal than be dead...plus i would likely be gone before the police arrived with their great response times

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    I understand your statement, but with officials having been informed of this site and thread. Statements like that do not help our case. We dont need them to see us as outlaws but law abiding folks.
    Last edited by Vegassteve; 05-13-2011 at 02:02 PM.

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    Sent another letter today with the washoe county reply about parks. Also asked that if the lady I have been in contact with is not able to give a ruling then I wanted to know who would.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegassteve View Post
    Sent another letter today with the washoe county reply about parks. Also asked that if the lady I have been in contact with is not able to give a ruling then I wanted to know who would.
    I'm not sure anyone at the library will be able to authoritatively respond as they are under Clark County. As such I'm sure they will contact the DA's office who will tell them they can ban firearms. I have been working at getting Clark County in line but have not been too successful as yet. They have a response from the AG that says they are still grandfathered even after the modification of NRS 244.364 as amended in 2007. Ask the library for the authority. If there is no county law enacted on or before June 13th of 1989 then they are shot down even by their own arguments. I'm betting there is none.

    TBG

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    UPDATE I got a letter in the mail today.

    I cant find NRS 370.040 maybe you folks can.
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    Well I think she meant this law. 379.040

    NRS 379.040 Library to be free and accessible to public; regulations of trustees. The library and reading room of any consolidated, county, district or town library must forever be and remain free and accessible to the public, subject to such reasonable regulations as the trustees of the library may adopt.

    [4:187:1925; NCL § 5598]—(NRS A 1967, 1061; 1985, 10)

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    My next response. Please proof and add to it.


    I received your hard copy letter today. I would like to point out first that NRS 370.040 does not exist. I think you were referring to NRS 379.040. Again your rule as stated in your regulations only relates to Conceal Carry. Nevada is a de-facto Open Carry state. You would have no authority to trespass a law abiding citizen for open carry. The law is very clear on the matter regulating carry in Nevada. Again as I have stated before the city of Henderson along with the state DMV recognize this fact. I am happy to provide you the rulings from them along with contact information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegassteve View Post
    UPDATE I got a letter in the mail today.

    I cant find NRS 370.040 maybe you folks can.

    I found this.

    370.040 Repealed 1971 Page 1169

    http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRSRepealed/R_R026.html
    "I rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6."
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet."

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