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Thread: Trespass/Schools

  1. #1
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    Trespass/Schools

    I have been looking for laws to base this on, but can't find anything. Could use your help here.

    Can a school trespass a parent of a child at that school for an activity, (OC) that is not otherwise illegal?

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I have been looking for laws to base this on, but can't find anything. Could use your help here.

    Can a school trespass a parent of a child at that school for an activity, (OC) that is not otherwise illegal?
    What they would probably charge you with is this Waterford Township Ordinance.

    ARTICLE VIII. OFFENSES ON SCHOOL GROUNDS

    Sec. 11-351. Definitions.
    For purposes of this article the term "school" means any preelementary, elementary (grades K--6), secondary (grades 7--12) school, any college or combination thereof; and the term "principal" means any principal of any elementary or secondary school or the chief administrative officer of any elementary or secondary school or college.
    Cross references: Definitions and rules of construction generally, 1-2.

    Sec. 11-352. Admission restricted.
    No person who is not a regularly enrolled student or parent or guardian thereof or a school official, teacher or other public or school employee shall enter or trespass upon or loiter in or upon any public, private or parochial school building or school property in the city for any reason whatever unless such person has received written permission from the principal or other person designated by the principal to be in or upon or to remain in or upon such public, private or parochial school building or school property; provided, however, that such written permission need not be secured by persons engaging in or attending a school or recreation board authorized activity or by persons using school playground or playground equipment after school hours or when school is not in session unless such entry or use shall have been otherwise prohibited by a rule or regulation of the school board, school principal or other person, board or committee with the authority to prohibit such use or entry.
    State law references: Trespassing, MCL 750.546 et seq., MSA 28.814 et seq.

    Sec. 11-353. Disturbing schools.
    No person shall willfully or maliciously make or assist in making any noise, disturbance or improper diversion by which the peace, quietude, or good order of any public, private or parochial school is disturbed.
    State law references: Disturbing public places, MCL 750.170, MSA 28.367.

    Sec. 11-354. Duty of person creating disturbance to leave premises.
    Any person, whether lawfully or unlawfully in or upon any public, private or parochial school building or school property who is found to be creating a disturbance in or upon any such school building or property shall leave immediately when so directed by the principal or by any other person designated by the principal.
    State law references: Disturbing public places, MCL 750.170.


    http://library1.municode.com:80/defa...infobase=12386
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    So this is specifically what you are referring to?

    "unless such entry or use shall have been otherwise prohibited by a rule or regulation of the school board, school principal or other person, board or committee with the authority to prohibit such use or entry"

    Question is, do they have the authority to ban someone because they don't like what they are wearing.

    "with the authority to prohibit"
    Last edited by stainless1911; 04-05-2011 at 05:26 PM.

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    11-354

    Im not the one causing the disturbance. Doesnt the AG cover this somewhere?

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    So this is specifically what you are referring to?

    "unless such entry or use shall have been otherwise prohibited by a rule or regulation of the school board, school principal or other person, board or committee with the authority to prohibit such use or entry"

    Question is, do they have the authority to ban someone because they don't like what they are wearing.

    "with the authority to prohibit"

    I've seen students sent home because they are wearing "inappropriate clothing"; I don't know where they derive the ability. The issue is usually covered under "disturbing the school environment" or some other term.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    11-354

    Im not the one causing the disturbance. Doesnt the AG cover this somewhere?
    Look at "who" gets to decide whether something is a "disturbance"...
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    AAh that catch all crappy law creating a disturbance. But exercising a right in a lawful manner is not creating a disturbance.

    A recent SCOTUS decision regarding the Westboro Baptist Church found that even if the activity is reprehensible and offends the majority of the people is not unlawful. The decision went on to say that if a right was allowed based on what some people want or who choose not to exercise a right then we have no rights.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Do you know where we can find that decision. Could help in future arguments

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    As much as I would like to, I think it would be a stretch to apply that decision here. Remember that schools are given much broader ability to regulate behavior: think of 1st and 4 th amendment issues and schools if you don't believe it. As I have stated many times here: schools and anyplace else where the general public entrusts the care of their children will be some of the last places that people feel comfortable allowing the general public to carry firearms. Many people, even those who may support OC in general, believe that the general public should not carry at a school.

    **This prohibition is not my desire. It is just that I believe that the public will fight our efforts with more zeal in this area than we have seen in any other.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  10. #10
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    I agree with DrTodd. People have irrational fears, especially about their children. It makes one wonder, if someone is hell bent on killing kiddies, is a law going to stop them?

    Are people afraid others would leave their gun laying around for a kid to pick up?

    Maybe they are afraid more people will be like the DEA agent, Brandish his gun in front of kids, and have an ND?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regardless of how the antis feel, and how strongly they feel it, this is the right fight to be fought, and as often as necessary until our rights are recognized, and taught, as it is their job to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coderdude View Post
    Do you know where we can find that decision. Could help in future arguments
    http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-751.pdf
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    As much as I would like to, I think it would be a stretch to apply that decision here. Remember that schools are given much broader ability to regulate behavior: think of 1st and 4 th amendment issues and schools if you don't believe it. As I have stated many times here: schools and anyplace else where the general public entrusts the care of their children will be some of the last places that people feel comfortable allowing the general public to carry firearms. Many people, even those who may support OC in general, believe that the general public should not carry at a school.

    **This prohibition is not my desire. It is just that I believe that the public will fight our efforts with more zeal in this area than we have seen in any other.
    Perhaps, I'm still going to throw it at them.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    always good for a laugh

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I agree with DrTodd. People have irrational fears, especially about their children. It makes one wonder, if someone is hell bent on killing kiddies, is a law going to stop them?

    Are people afraid others would leave their gun laying around for a kid to pick up?

    Maybe they are afraid more people will be like the DEA agent, Brandish his gun in front of kids, and have an ND?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhIJOVD8hwY

    the ONE thing i'll give they guy is he's tough. really tough. i think i might have been crying snotbubbles.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Perhaps, I'm still going to throw it at them.
    seems reasonable, but then they might charge you with assault
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

  16. #16
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    seems reasonable, but then they might charge you with assault
    A gentle toss then.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  17. #17
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhIJOVD8hwY

    the ONE thing i'll give they guy is he's tough. really tough. i think i might have been crying snotbubbles.
    He pulled the breach open to show clear it. Maybe there was a full mag in it?

    He must not have looked carefully and the clown he showed it to had probably never seen a gun before.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  18. #18
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Regardless of how the antis feel, and how strongly they feel it, this is the right fight to be fought, and as often as necessary until our rights are recognized, and taught, as it is their job to do.
    It is ALWAYS RIGHT to fight for OUR RIGHTS! Ignorant boobs are always fighting for non existent rights these days.Why should we shirk our duty to fight for our God Given,Inalienable Rights,that actualy DO EXIST? We should do nothing less! EVER! CARRY ON!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    When they can tell me that Im the only one carrying this way, that can only mean that not enough people are doing it often enough.

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