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Thread: DPS Says NM Permit Now Required For Residents

  1. #1
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    DPS Says NM Permit Now Required For Residents

    I've been offering Arizona courses for NM residents for some time. It makes a great low-cost alternative to the NM permits for those who can't afford it.

    I have repeatedly checked with DPS to make sure the permits would be valid for NM residents. Never had any problems, the answer was always yes. "We don't really like it, but unless the legislature changes the law we're stuck with it."

    Then I get a call from some irate guy today saying he wanted to take my course but called DPS and they said NM licenses are required for residents. He then went on to chew me out, and how irresponsible I am, etc. and how I'd better have good insurance because people with less than 15 hours of training are going to kill indiscriminately and all that hoo hockey. "So why are you calling asking about my course?" I thought to myself.

    So I googled his phone number and turns out he's another instructor in the area calling from his home phone that he listed in an old online ad before he got a business line. He's probably sitting there at his house right now patting himself on the back for being so slick As much as I'd love to name his name on here, I'm going to hold back and be more classy than he is.

    So I call DPS and ask them what's going on, and they said NM residents need NM permits. I asked if the law or rules changed, they said no. At that point the receptionist was out of answers and said I need to call later in the week and talk to Sgt. Skasik about it because she told everybody that's the way it is now.

    I'm putting the advertising for the AZ courses on hold for the moment, but I'll definitely check on it and see what's going on.

  2. #2
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    Sounds like the Texas instructors objecting to the Utah license.

    Please post your follow-up with the NM DPS contact.

  3. #3
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    here is what it says on the NM DPS website

    http://www.dps.nm.org/lawEnforcement/ccw/index.php

    Concealed Handgun Carry Act of 2005
    Important - Please Read

    Change to 30-7-3 NMSA 1978 UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF A FIREARM IN LICENSED LIQUOR ESTABLISHMENTS (Effective July 1, 2007)
    Statute, Instructions & Application
    Carrying Concealed Handguns - Rules.
    The State of New Mexico no longer recognizes concealed carry licenses issued by the State of Utah but currently has a written reciprocity agreement in place with Texas. New Mexico Department of Public Safety is reevaluating the status of eighteen other states currently recognized on an informal basis, with the intent of entering into written agreements with these states to ensure compliance. These states are: Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, and Wyoming.
    Concealed Carry License Replacement Card Application
    Authorization for release of information form
    Authorization for release of health information form (All licensee applicants must submit this form)
    List of approved Concealed Carry Instructors
    A gun Owner Is A Citizen
    Anyone Else is a Subject

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    Hoping Steve will chime in here, but it would seem to me that DPS cannot just make unilateral decisions like this on their own. There needs to be more to it than their just "telling people that's the way it is now."

    This does involve rules and laws. Those can't "just" be changed on a whim. I'm calling BS for now.

  5. #5
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    From the DPS website

    http://www.dps.nm.org/lawEnforcement/ccw/ccwFaq.php

    Question: Is my out-of-state permit (i.e. Florida, Utah) valid in place of a NM concealed carry license when I move to/live in New Mexico?

    Answer: As of December 2008, the answer is “yes” (as long as it is from a state that NM recognizes). However, there may soon be legislation passed requiring NM residents who want to carry concealed to obtain a NM concealed carry license.
    cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt

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    Mike- thanks for pointing that out, I had not noticed it.

    The key words being "may soon be passed." This does not equate with "this is how it is now." Until something is actually passed, it doesn't exist.

  7. #7
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    Called Them Up

    I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

    So I called in again and they had me talk to Valdez.

    He says that out of state permits were never valid for NM residents, only for people who just moved in or for people who are visiting the state. I told him about the website and he said that was bad information.

    I told him about my prior calls about the subject, he says "I don't know who told you that."

    So basically, they've changed their policy, and are pretending that there was never any change. Supposedly, this is the way it always was.

    He also told me that's the reason they got rid of Utah reciprocity, that too many people were carrying on Utah permits.
    Last edited by PracticalTactical; 04-07-2011 at 01:43 PM.

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    I've met that guy personally. He is, shall we say, a little full of himself.

    Same answer as before- if it's not in the rules or laws, what the DPS drones say doesn't matter. I'd like to see them try to enforce something that does not exist, and has not been passed by the state.

    And here I thought the change in Governorship seemed to make some positive changes there.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by PracticalTactical View Post

    So basically, they've changed their policy, and are pretending that there was never any change. Supposedly, this is the way it always was.

    He also told me that's the reason they got rid of Utah reciprocity, that too many people were carrying on Utah permits.
    They probably did the math. Let's say there are 10,000 NM residents who are currently using an out of state permit to carry concealed in NM. If DPS can force them to now apply for a NM permit, that is $1 million in new revenue to the DPS. Quick way to balance the budget in these frugal times.
    cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt

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    I wonder how far this goes

    What I really have to wonder now is whether this illegal policy is something just that office is spouting off, or if DPS as a whole intends to play the game.

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    Wheew

    So I decided to go ahead and call the instructor who confronted me yesterday.

    After an initial rather heated discussion, and some cooling off, he told me why the policy appears to have changed.

    Basically, we're looking at a reinterpretation of 30-7-2. It's the statute that prohibits carrying concealed, loaded weapons, and one of the exceptions is "by a person in possession of a valid concealed handgun license issued to him by the department of public safety pursuant to the provisions of the Concealed Handgun Carry Act [29-19-1 NMSA 1978]."

    They're interpreting it to mean that one must have the license issued directly from the DPS, and not just be compliant with the act by having a recognized license. Apparently something happened recently to make them change their stance down at DPS. $$$$

    Unfortunately, this looks bad for people passing through. While their license or permit is recognized, this interpretation of the statute would make them guilty of unlawful carrying of a deadly weapon.

    What a mess.

  12. #12
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    Baloney.

    They have to make the public aware of a change in policy at the very least.

  13. #13
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    I'm in touch with the governor's office, and am working with them to get this issue ironed out. The new head of DPS is probably going to have to get involved.

    Reciprocity with every other state is at stake if something doesn't get worked out on this, because under their interpretation no out of state permits are valid for anybody if the law is applied evenly to all present in the state.

    That and they are in violation of their agreement with Texas.

    Hopefully we can help them avoid a big mess.

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    Angry

    Do you know what pisses me off is that New Mexico will not issue a NM CCW to a non US citizen I'm a LEGAL resident of the USA IE green card holder so what the hell am I suppose to do if they say a NM resident has to have a NM CCW I can not start my citizen application for an other6 months yes i know i can OC but I would like to go to places where i do not have to take my weapon off
    A gun Owner Is A Citizen
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    My letter to the governor

    [Letter withdrawn from public view for now for tactical reasons]
    Last edited by PracticalTactical; 04-08-2011 at 01:16 AM.

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    "Some" people at the DPS can't just choose to make a reinterpretation of statute according to one situation. They cannot just make these unilateral decisions on their own according to their own personal feelings.

    The law is the law. Rules are rules.

    Practical- thanks for what you're doing, this does indeed sound like not just a mess but a severe cluster****.

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    Who decides reciprocity in NM? DPS or Attorney General?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    who decides reciprocity in nm? Dps or attorney general?
    dps

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    I'm of the opposite opinion; I think that if you want to CC in your state, you should have that states carry license. If you live in NM you can't register to vote in Utah, if you live in Texas you can't register your car in Vermont, if you live in New York you don't pay California taxes, if you move to Washington you get a Washington drivers licence. Where you live is what law you're subject to. Why would you spend your money in another state? Don't you want YOUR cops properly funded?
    Lower the crime rate by lowering the criminal survival rate!
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark-in-texas View Post
    I'm of the opposite opinion; I think that if you want to CC in your state, you should have that states carry license. If you live in NM you can't register to vote in Utah, if you live in Texas you can't register your car in Vermont, if you live in New York you don't pay California taxes, if you move to Washington you get a Washington drivers licence. Where you live is what law you're subject to. Why would you spend your money in another state? Don't you want YOUR cops properly funded?
    Well, write your legislators and ask them to change the law. Until they do, your opinion is nothing more than an opinion.

    I feel it's more important that our public servants follow the law than anybody's opinion.

  21. #21
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    Let me sum up simply

    Let me sum this up more clearly, now that I'm over the initial pissed off phase:

    They are concerned, for whatever reason, about NM residents carrying in NM on non-NM permits/licenses. I get that.

    They pushed the legislature to change the law to require NM residents to get NM permits if they want to carry in NM. Legislature didn't do it.

    Instead of respecting the law, they found a way to reinterpret the law to make ALL out of state permits invalid, and then say they only intend to enforce this interpretation against NM residents.

    But they could, in theory, enforce it against anybody they wanted to. So, instead of rule of law, we have rule of men (with guns). This is NEW Mexico, not Mexico. We can't put up with this kind of behavior out of people in government if we want a good society.

    If I were from out of state carrying on my home state permit, this would concern me, knowing that technically I could be arrested for carrying at any time and that if I am in a place that sells alcohol it could be a felony arrest. If I were an official in a state that recognizes New Mexico, I might reconsider a reciprocity agreement until NM decided they wanted to fully and safely recognize permits from my state.

    I can understand that they want NM residents to get 15 hours of training, but if they want to go about that they need to obey the law like the rest of us instead of changing the rules mid-game on a technicality to get what they want but the legislature wouldn't give them.

    The cost of doing this kind of thing illegitimately is too high. The risks of doing this sort of thing far outweigh any public safety benefit that might be gained from allowing this sort of thing to go on.

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    Thumbs down

    Practical,

    Until I see or hear actual word of their intent to enforce this "policy" change, I am going to take this as a bunch of hot air being blown by a bunch of blowhards.

    They need to put something in writing not only to make the public aware, but also to inform law enforcement of how to do the enforcement.

    Otherwise they are opening themselves up to great liabilities. I do not think people will put up with it, and the new Governor seems like she sure as heck won't.

  23. #23
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    Any update to this?

  24. #24
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    Not yet. I sent a request to the governor and DPS head to look into it and get it straightened out. Haven't heard back yet.


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    Angry

    If this happens then I'm screwed NM WILL NOT issue a CCW to a non USA Citizen I'm a legal resident and I know I can open carry but there are places i want to carry my weapon into so I want to ask this who do I contact to see why they discriminate against non USA citizens but who are LEGAL permanent residents
    Last edited by RogueAussie; 04-17-2011 at 10:04 AM.
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