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Thread: South Hill Mall walking the line.

  1. #1
    Regular Member DevinWKuska's Avatar
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    South Hill Mall walking the line.

    Recently I was with my wife at the South HIll Mall in Puyallup. We had bought her shoes, coffe pot, anyways... While talking with a real estate agent in a Kiosk I was approached by an elderly mall cop. The Mall cop asked me why I had a gun on me. I stated because 2A, washington constituion, as well as RCW 9.14.... He stated he knew it was legal but why did I have it on me ().

    About this time he radio'ed to his Mall Cop fortress(located by the foodcourt which doesnt serve donuts). After asking me very politely if I would cover it up because it might make some shoppers nervous I said no problem. A darker skinned woman(apparently his supervisor) came strolling up and the mall cop told her what was going on to which she responded "Yeah I know, I saw him earlier." I told the elderly mall cop that I didnt realize it was an issue and the mall should have that posted. He said he would look into it.

    So after he wandered off to go change his dentures... I found the security office and asked the darker skinned woman(supervisor) if they had any actual written policy on no OC. She handed me a card stating that "Weapons of ANY kind are prohibited." The kind lady said she doesnt really care since washington state law says I can. Oddly enough the only sign is right in front of the security office.

    On a side not I am considering writing the owners a letter since Big 5, as well as Dicks sporting goods both sell firearms and pocket knives, as well as some cutlery places sell fantasy knives and swords. So the mall is leasing to vendors who openly sell "Contraband" per their contract, and unless you see the Old guy wandering around, the mall cops are pro-2!

    P.S I say darker skinned not to be offensive but rather because to my knowledge the other 3 females are fair skinned. So if you see this lady wave to her!
    Last edited by DevinWKuska; 04-06-2011 at 11:50 PM. Reason: trying not to offend
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  2. #2
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    I would not say Pro 2A, Sounds like they are just indifferent or too lazy to do much more than ask.

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    Regular Member 5jeffro7's Avatar
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    the mall, being a private entity, has the right to ban carry of weapons...sure, they could tell big 5 & dicks that they can't sell firearms & knives in their store, but how long do you think they'd stay there & fork out hundreds of thousands of dollars a month/year if that were to happen.
    personally, I don't think your letter would even get a response..but that's just my opinion...big business v. consumer..the wants/needs/inventory of big business is always going to win..if you really want to change things, open a business bigger than the aforementioned stores & open carry within your business...just don't sign the contract with the mall if they insist you carry no weapon.

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    Check this thread

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...outh+hill+mall

    This was my experience with the mall! Hope this helps you understand how they truly feel, though their sign says otherwise.

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    The ignorance of the laws and how they apply in this situation is staggering. From both sides.

    I thought OCDO was doing a good job educating people. Apparently I'm wrong.

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    The mall does, in fact, as a private entity, have the right to tell people they can't carry. They can tell you to leave if you don't abide by their rules. Refusing to leave could lead to a criminal trespass charge.

    Sounds like they don't really care, as long as it's concealed. Sounds like they just don't want to put up with people complaining.

    Personally, I wouldn't shop there any more. If there were something I needed and that mall were the only place I could find it, I may choose to CC and venture into the mall. But if there's any other way to get what I need (via online stores or 2A friendly stores), I'll go with that. The mall would be my last resort.
    Quote Originally Posted by SayWhat View Post

    Shooters before hooters.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    The ignorance of the laws and how they apply in this situation is staggering. From both sides.

    I thought OCDO was doing a good job educating people. Apparently I'm wrong.
    Just because someone doesn't agree with your OPINION doesn't make them uneducated, enlighten us oh wise one.

    Oh I forgot.......Yawn.....
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  8. #8
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting Devin.

    At least they are not freaking out and wanting total banning, I think a few years ago they might have. From the effort of OC'ers gun rights have become well known in this state and many gun fears diminished.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  9. #9
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    It's my belief that Malls and other similar properties will continue to have "No Firearms/Weapons" bans unless State Law prevents them from doing so. It's a matter of perceived liability.

    In the event that someone carrying a firearm decides to shoot up the place because they are having a bad day there will be those that will blame the mall if they don't have this policy. As it is, these same people will also blame the mall because their "Paul Blarts" didn't do enough to prevent the presence of firearms.

    Of course, should the State ban such prohibitions, there will be those that scream bloody murder because the property owners rights are being infringed. It's pretty much a no win situation.

    Either Malls start hiring real cops, screening their customers on entry, or the risk remains to customers from that one or two deranged shooters. If they don't then it should be made perfectly clear that all customers are responsible for their own security while on the premises. I'm sure their insurance carriers would love that.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Just because someone doesn't agree with your OPINION doesn't make them uneducated, enlighten us oh wise one.

    Oh I forgot.......Yawn.....
    +1!!!

    The mall will always be the mall. The zombies will always go there. This, too, shall pass
    Last edited by Deleted_User; 04-07-2011 at 07:44 PM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member DevinWKuska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goose View Post
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...outh+hill+mall

    This was my experience with the mall! Hope this helps you understand how they truly feel, though their sign says otherwise.
    Perphaps your little chat lead to the sign wording being changed. it now Reads ( will type exactly as the card states

    " This Mall is a privately owned and operated shopping center: For the comfort and safety of all visitors, please refrain from the following.
    Smoking, soliciting, Loud or abusive language, Running, Skateboarding, Rollerblading, Horseplay, Loitering, Carrying any type of weapon, Using or consuming alcohol or any illegal substances, Wearing obscene or offensive clothing, bringing animals onto the property other tehan service animals for persons with disabilities, Bringing Photographic or videotaping equipemtn onto the property without written approval, Engagine in any act that violates local, state or Federal Laws

    The Mall reserves the right to prohibit any other activity that affects teh comfort and safety of its visitors. The Mall also reserves the right to evict or ban individuals found to have violated these General Policies'"


    notice the word "Any" weapon
    So if you wear anything from SPencers gifts, or Obama shirts can I have you removed?
    This one gets kinda iffy IMO. To fully enforce this they would have to kcik people out for having cellphones since most seem to have cameras these days. I suspect this is there so they can give the boot to Media(who prolly wouldnt listen anyway)
    "So there I was between a rock and a hard place, when it hit me... What am I doing on this side of the rock?"

  12. #12
    Regular Member DevinWKuska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    The ignorance of the laws and how they apply in this situation is staggering. From both sides.

    I thought OCDO was doing a good job educating people. Apparently I'm wrong.
    Did I miss something? I am curious as to this remark and to whom it was directed toward? I dont see how I had any ignorance regarding the law in this situation. I think most would agree that posting a single sign in literally the darkest corner of the mall doesnt exactly keep the general populice informed. The mall cops made a request of me and I complied without any resistance. So was this comment directed at something else? OR do you know something I dont?
    "So there I was between a rock and a hard place, when it hit me... What am I doing on this side of the rock?"

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    OR do you know something I dont? (sic)
    I know that the Second Amendment, the State Constitution RKBA protections, and RCW 9.14 (sic) have no bearing on you carrying a gun on someone else's private property.

    I also know that the security supervisor saying she won't enforce the mall's administrative prohibition because "washington (sic) state law says I can" is a false application of the law on her part.

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    Regular Member 1911er's Avatar
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    hello gold digger
    I truly Love my Country, But the government scares the he!! out of me.

    DEMAND IT
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    I came into this world kicking and screaming covered in someone else's blood. And if necessary to protect the Constitution of The United States of AMERICA. I will go out the same way

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  15. #15
    Regular Member DevinWKuska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    I know that the Second Amendment, the State Constitution RKBA protections, and RCW 9.14 (sic) have no bearing on you carrying a gun on someone else's private property.
    I also know that the security supervisor saying she won't enforce the mall's administrative prohibition because "washington (sic) state law says I can" is a false application of the law on her part.
    Hmm although I agree with you to a point, I must point out that there really isnt anywhere you can go that is NOT private property. I would be interested if there is any place other then highways and streets that you feel is not private property. Even most Govt buildings are leased from private property owners. So based on your statement OC is illegal unless your walking down the street. Feel free to elabaorate.

    First of all the malls very statement is "Please refrain from..." which is a strong suggestion it is much different then a "NO WEAPONS" statement. The policies listed are to give the management of the mall the ability to remove customers who might disrupt other patrons. Her statement was valid and in no way a breach of law by any means. If it is up the management and security's discretion when and how a rule was broken, then it was her call to make. Perphaps you missed the posting where I typed word for word(well they didnt have spelling issues)what the sign said.

    Further more unless you have some specific law or referance to to site in regards to either the Mall or My individual laws. Please refrain from blatantly slamming either myself, the South Hill Mall security, and even the forum your posting in. Your initial statement did nothing more then strike me as a personal attack. If your going to roast someone atlease have the courtesy to explain your views and have some form of evidence to support your claim. Otherwise nobody becomes any wiser, and your postings get flagged as inapropriate.


    Thank you for your cooperation in this matter!
    "So there I was between a rock and a hard place, when it hit me... What am I doing on this side of the rock?"

  16. #16
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    So based on your statement OC is illegal unless your walking down the street.
    Not illegal. Simply not protected as a right. You can walk around all you want on private property with a gun, as long as the property owner (or leasee as the case may be) is ok with it. You just don't have 2A or state consitutional protections while doing it. You wrote your story as though you believed your 2A and other constitutional protections applied on private property. This is false. An argument about the extent of private property is not relevant, although I will make the point that private property leased by the government is de facto public property.

    Her statement was valid and in no way a breach of law by any means.
    Perhaps not, but the way you relayed it made it sound as though she thought that state law trumped the mall's administrative rules. This also is false.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    It's my belief that Malls and other similar properties will continue to have "No Firearms/Weapons" bans unless State Law prevents them from doing so. It's a matter of perceived liability.

    In the event that someone carrying a firearm decides to shoot up the place because they are having a bad day there will be those that will blame the mall if they don't have this policy. As it is, these same people will also blame the mall because their "Paul Blarts" didn't do enough to prevent the presence of firearms.

    Of course, should the State ban such prohibitions, there will be those that scream bloody murder because the property owners rights are being infringed. It's pretty much a no win situation.

    Either Malls start hiring real cops, screening their customers on entry, or the risk remains to customers from that one or two deranged shooters. If they don't then it should be made perfectly clear that all customers are responsible for their own security while on the premises. I'm sure their insurance carriers would love that.
    Great just what we need TSA at the mall, its bad enough there are to many people as it is the last thing i want todo is to get frisked apon entry and lets face it i wanna goto the mall for a good time not along time... Malls maybe private property but in the end when someone goes in there who shouldnt have a gun starts shooting people and someone gets killed. When the property owners get sued for everything they have they will reconsider the rules they have.... Its happened before it will happen again

  18. #18
    Regular Member liberty404's Avatar
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    Lightbulb a method of influencing things

    An effective way to influence the mall's policy would be to contact the corporate headquarters of the Big 5, cutlery, and other stores that sell 'weapons' that might be covered by the mall's policy. Politely express to the corporate HQ that you like their store and would like to shop there, but that mall policy prohibits carrying such objects as /swiss army knife/kitchen knives/bow and arrow/other/ . Don't mention open carry, as this is a policy issue that is wider than the open or concealed carry. It's an issue of a mall policy that bans the products that the stores sell - and your major interest in shopping with them.

    If your informatory letter to the corporate HQ sounds reasonable to them (have your letter checked by someone not invested in the issue) they likely will contact the mall executives. The mall policy is costing them revenue. The considerable monthly lease fees paid by Big 5, the cutlery store, etc. will give their words a weight and influence that you and I cannot equal no matter the soap box we stand upon.
    Don't make me hungry, you won't like me when I'm hungry.

  19. #19
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    ive read both of your posts,,,
    so far i like you,
    not sure if i will be the only one, or not,
    my judgement is in reserve, but so far so good,
    watch out,,, im the only one of me, that i know of on this forum...

    my hearty welcome to you...
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  20. #20
    Regular Member DevinWKuska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    [/COLOR]Not illegal. Simply not protected as a right. You can walk around all you want on private property with a gun, as long as the property owner (or leasee as the case may be) is ok with it. You just don't have 2A or state consitutional protections while doing it. You wrote your story as though you believed your 2A and other constitutional protections applied on private property. This is false. An argument about the extent of private property is not relevant, although I will make the point that private property leased by the government is de facto public property.
    Hmm not a very good 2A then is it? Sounds like its not really a right after all. So whats the point?


    No I did not tell my story as though I believed the 2A applied on private property. I told my story and stated my reply why I had a gun on my hip. Whether or not it applies to private property is irrelevant. He asked a question and I stated to the best of my ability why I had a firearm. Again there is no posting anywhere in the mall (other then literally the darkest corner of the mall) stating any rules or policies. I had been shopping for a few hours with not so much as a dirty look.


    If you truly believe that my statement was incorrect then if someone asks you why you OC, I assume you immediatley just leave the area your in since your on private property right? I guess I fail to see how you OC anywhere but your own home. There are alot of people who are unaware of OC as legal in the state of washington would you agree? The gentlemen asked why I had it on my hip, not why was I carrying on private property that asks you to refrain from carrying. I am unsure why you are so dis-illusiioned. Maybe someone who is less attacking can explain my error better. I appreciate your feedback none the less and hope to discuss subjects with you in the future.
    Last edited by DevinWKuska; 04-12-2011 at 11:26 AM. Reason: reduce posting/ spelling
    "So there I was between a rock and a hard place, when it hit me... What am I doing on this side of the rock?"

  21. #21
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarhead1055 View Post
    Great just what we need TSA at the mall, its bad enough there are to many people as it is the last thing i want todo is to get frisked apon entry and lets face it i wanna goto the mall for a good time not along time... Malls maybe private property but in the end when someone goes in there who shouldnt have a gun starts shooting people and someone gets killed. When the property owners get sued for everything they have they will reconsider the rules they have.... Its happened before it will happen again
    So what happened after Dominick Maldonado shot up the Tacoma Mall? Did the mall get sued?

    Same question for Sulejman Talović? Did the Trolley Square Mall in SLC, UT get sued?

    What were the outcomes of such suits if they were filed?

    So far there doesn't seem to be any change in either security measures or policies.

    I am by no means an advocate of TSA style security and I don't believe my post advocated such. I was just pointing out the obvious, that without that we'd continue to see a "no firearms policy". So far it doesn't appear that the victims, if they have or are suing the malls, are having much effect on malls current policies one way or another.

    For me, I believe that since "it's my life" I will continue to follow "My Policy" which is to never shop at a mall without being able to protect myself.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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