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So I open Carried at the Nevada Highway Patrol Headquarters today

DON`T TREAD ON ME

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METRO is on my list as well, Not sure if I should start in the IA dept. with their sign, or roll in a substation with video (planned unlike NHP) where I guess I just saw that BS sign one time to many. Thanks Sabotage for the assist on the pic.
 

GoDSpeeD

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That video is gold. Nice to see that so called Law Enforcenent upholds the actual law. What a joke of an officer.

GoDSpeeD
 

DON`T TREAD ON ME

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The sign seems absolutely correct according to NRS:



The sign seems to say exactly what it is supposed to say in accordance with the NRS... "no firearms".

Yes, only concealed firearms are prohibited, but the wording on the sign is correct.

I Disagree, if the sign said "persuent to NRS 202.3673 Concealed firearms prohibited" It would be accurate. If the sign in its current state, was backed by law the Troopers would be in violation.
 
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TigerLily

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I Disagree, if the sign said "persuent to NRS 202.3673 Concealed firearms prohibited" It would be accurate. If the sign in its current state, was backed by law the Troopers would be in violation.

If no firearms were allowed, then why is the trooper allowed in there with a firearm? I had never thought of it that way. It should read - only law enforcers allowed with firearms. But it doesn't. Hmmmm..... This is getting me to think out the box :banana:

By the way .... that was me that took the vid ;)
 
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TigerLily

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Good thing you said something, I hardly ever check my e-mail, give me a sec.

NHP.jpg

That is a bad-ass sign. Can't wait to see the new one when they tear down that unlawful, deceitful, sign!!!
 

gmijackso

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I have a feeling that the sign will not change. As NavyLT said, the sign is in compliance with NRS. The only thing that is not in compliance is the manner in which they enforce the sign. The sign states exactly what it must for the NRS to apply, it's just that even with that sign, only concealed carry is prohibited. So, in order for them to uphold the NRS (prohibiting concealed carry) that sign MUST be posted just as it is (no firearms) per the directions within the NRS. The officers just need to learn that in reality, they can only prohibit concealment, and not open carry.

Also, when coupled with the above, the sign also deters lawful open carrying in the building by anybody unwilling to press the issue. This is something LEO wants to happen. So it's a win/win for them to have this particular sign posted. It complies exactly with the requirements of the NRS, AND it "fools" others into believing that ALL firearms are prohibited. If the sign keeps one lawful OC out of the building, it's a win for the LEO and no additional effort was made on their part.

Just to be clear, I agree that the sign and the NRS does not prohibit OC in any way legally only in the minds of LEO at the moment. Hopefully that will change soon too.
 

Nevada carrier

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It's not what is on the sign, but what is written in the statute cited on the sign. They can Have a sign that says "No firearms," But if the statute printed on the sign says, "No Concealed Firearms," Then all they can enforce is concealed firearms.
 

gmijackso

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It's not what is on the sign, but what is written in the statute cited on the sign. They can Have a sign that says "No firearms," But if the statute printed on the sign says, "No Concealed Firearms," Then all they can enforce is concealed firearms.

Agreed. But legally in order to enforce the statute cited on the sign (no concealed firearms) the sign MUST say "No firearms" AND IIRC must also have the NRS cited as well. So, the sign and NRS are posted as they must be in order to enforce the NRS. Enforcing laws that don't exist is the true problem here, and I think some of the focus is misplaced when aimed at a goal of changing/removing the sign (albeit in connection with changing enforcement practices), especially when the sign IS in fact posted legally and as required.
 

DON`T TREAD ON ME

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I have a feeling that the sign will not change. As NavyLT said, the sign is in compliance with NRS. The only thing that is not in compliance is the manner in which they enforce the sign. .

Since it causes problems with training, changing it will be considered I think.


The sign states exactly what it must for the NRS to apply,

Would the sign still be legal in your eyes if it said concealed firearms?

It's just that even with that sign, only concealed carry is prohibited. So, in order for them to uphold the NRS (prohibiting concealed carry) that sign MUST be posted just as it is (no firearms) per the directions within the NRS. The officers just need to learn that in reality, they can only prohibit concealment, and not open carry.

The Government is not serving us if they are being misleading. And since it appears intentional, as you admit I will bet there is a statute. (Free beer if someone finds it)
If by chance they are not breaking a written law, they are shirking their duty to "protect our rights" as I pointed out in the video.


Also, when coupled with the above, the sign also deters lawful open carrying in the building by anybody unwilling to press the issue. This is something LEO wants to happen. So it's a win/win for them to have this particular sign posted. It complies exactly with the requirements of the NRS, AND it "fools" others into believing that ALL firearms are prohibited. If the sign keeps one lawful OC out of the building, it's a win for the LEO and no additional effort was made on their part.

The deters part is an infringment on my 2-A which I find fully unacceptable, if LEO wants to serve me in this fashion, LEO is in the wrong business. We do not pay them to "fool" us. The 1 OC'er That that sign has kept from OC (me), will not pass though that door a chump ever again. I have drawn a line in the sand, Will they open fire? who knows, that Officer said he cleared his holster with his weapon, Is that a Win/ Win?

Just to be clear, I agree that the sign and the NRS does not prohibit OC in any way legally only in the minds of LEO at the moment. Hopefully that will change soon too.

I might be a little optomistic thinking they will change the sign to read "no concealed firearms" but I have been in contact with the "big shots" since this went down, Training has been mentioned, and the cheapest way to reinforce it would be the signs. Now if I were a dreamer, I would ask Captain Jackson for a old sign (In the picture) to hang in my garage.

Thank you for your insight, it helps me grow. I am glad you ran this stuff by me, there are more buildings, and training to accomplish. my goal is that this event can cover all DPS.
 

DVC

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The sign seems absolutely correct according to NRS:



The sign seems to say exactly what it is supposed to say in accordance with the NRS... "no firearms".

Yes, only concealed firearms are prohibited, but the wording on the sign is correct.

This is a case of new law being compatible with old law.

Prior to legalized CCW and pre-emption, a "no firearms" sign was probably legal. When the new laws were written, it was recognized that these signs were in use, thus they were considered sufficient to get the point across.

At the DMV yesterday, I noticed that the signs SPECIFICALLY referred to concealed weapons being prohibited. These are non-permanent laser printed signs, but they were clear as to intent and limit.
 

DON`T TREAD ON ME

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At the DMV yesterday, I noticed that the signs SPECIFICALLY referred to concealed weapons being prohibited. These are non-permanent laser printed signs, but they were clear as to intent and limit.

Right. There have been several of us chipping away at the DMV, I had an unrelated issue handled by the Directer. So after that was over with I wrote a "By the Way" / Thank you letter, here was the result emphesis added.

--- On Tue, 12/21/10, Tom Jacobs <tjacobs@dmv.nv.gov> wrote:


From: Tom Jacobs <tjacobs@dmv.nv.gov>
Subject: RE: Signs at the DMV
To: weezkat@yahoo.com
Date: Tuesday, December 21, 2010, 2:08 PM


Mr. Stilwell,

You are correct. We are in the process of changing the signs. Tom Jacobs

Chief Public Information Officer

Nevada Dept. of Motor Vehicles

775-684-4779
 

gmijackso

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Would the sign still be legal in your eyes if it said concealed firearms?

No, it would not. At least not in the sense I intended. Sure they may place that sign there if they choose, but changing the sign from "no firearms" to "no concealed firearms" would prevent them from enforcing NRS 202.3673 at all as they have then not properly posted every entrance with the proper signage as required by that same NRS. It is really a matter of poor wording in the NRS, but it is what it is, and because of that the sign must be as is in order to enforce. Changing the sign IS simple enough, but changing the NRS so that the "no concealed firearms" sign is acceptable would be required first, which I don't think they'll even attempt to do.

It's just much simpler for them to "retrain" the officers that OC is not covered, leave the sign as is so that they can enforce 202.3673, and take the "bonus" that some OCers may be duped that "no firearms" really means no firearms.


The Government is not serving us if they are being misleading. And since it appears intentional, as you admit I will bet there is a statute. (Free beer if someone finds it)
If by chance they are not breaking a written law, they are shirking their duty to "protect our rights" as I pointed out in the video.

The deters part is an infringment on my 2-A which I find fully unacceptable, if LEO wants to serve me in this fashion, LEO is in the wrong business. We do not pay them to "fool" us.

I totally agree with the sentiment of this, but the truth is, that LEO have been allowed and, actually encouraged to "fool" citizens for decades. It actually IS a part of their job and has been upheld by many a court case. They do so in the name of "protection" and "law enforcement". Take a look at any of the other threads here that talk about not talking to officers, at all, due to the manipulative questioning and such. It is essentially the same situation, except this time they are using a printed sign instead of spoken words. LEO has every legality to lie to you, you are just not allowed to lie back.

Suggesting that you can be arrested IS too far and IS illegal as you suggested in your video. That IS coercion and will surely be "trained" away. But, telling you that firearms are not allowed is simply just a lie. In fact, telling you that it's illegal is simply just a lie. It is not coercion until you are threatened with force or detainment (or some other penalty) in an attempt to stop you doing an act that is in fact legal. Simply stating that it is illegal without suggesting that there is any consequence for violating the falsehood does not constitute coercion.

I applaud your efforts and fully support them and you. I'm glad you see my comments in the good hearted fashion they are intended. I hope in some way the alternate perspective will help your fight and perhaps give a chance to pre-think their possible moves so that you can be ready should any of my suggested possibilities come to pass.
Thank you for your work and efforts. You're doing great!
 
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Lostlittlerobot

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Suggesting that you can be arrested IS too far and IS illegal as you suggested in your video. That IS coercion...

I liked your destinction there in how they can lie, but at a point it turns from a lie to coercion. Well done.


Anyone know if at a substation, while doing a burg report or like registering a handgun, you can go OC? It's been a while since I've been to one, and wasn't prepared to be detained cause I had a busy day, so I disarmed, and just took in the cased unloaded one I was registering. I assume this same sort of situation occurs if you try to go in armed, and with the empty one you're registering.

If it is NOT allowed, please cite.

If it is allowed, anyone wanna schedule a time to go register a gun and go OC, and vid it and such like Tread did at the NHP place. If you want to Tread, I'd love to be in on it.
 
2

28kfps

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Enforcement by intimidation, using codes and laws manipulated by adding or subtraction wording to fit their agenda.
I was glad to see the DMV at Pahrump posted this NRS with the exact wording in the NRS stating no concealed firearms. There was no issue with my open carried firearm in a recent 45-minute visit at the Pahrump DMV.
Several months ago, an open carry .org regular poster sent several e-mails to Attorney General Catherine Cortez Masto asking if she agreed the NRS 202.3673 wording does not include open carried firearms. The replies were posted on OC.org. If I remember correctly, the AG did not reply at first. After many e-mails, she did reply with words to this effect. With some likelihood some might come to the possible conclusion NRS 202.3673 may not refer to open carry.
A great attempt trying not to say yes to a question anyone who comprehends English obviously would answer yes this NRS does not include open carry.
With some time to research, one might be able to find the reply.
 

one5oh2nv

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Great work. I know its hard to stand up to leo sometimes but thanks to guys like you we can and have changed things in vegas for the better!!! Thanks again!


@lostlittlerobot I was actually thinking about that the other day had to take 2 firearms down and register but didnt want to chance it! I have another one I need to take care of.

Does anyone have any experience with oc while registering a different firearm? I may have to try and see what happens.
 
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gmijackso

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I was glad to see the DMV at Pahrump posted this NRS with the exact wording in the NRS stating no concealed firearms.

Please be careful in your choice of words lest there be cause for misunderstanding.

NRS 202.3673, 3.b
A public building that has a metal detector at each public entrance or a sign posted at each public entrance indicating that no firearms are allowed in the building, unless the permittee is not prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of the public building pursuant to subsection 4.
--Bolded for emphasis.

The true exact wording is in fact "No firearms". In theory, the DMV having changed the wording to state "No concealed firearms" would likely indicate that they have not properly posted per the requirements of NRS 202.3673 and as such even enforcement of the restriction of concealed firearms is not possible.

Again, I think the real pressure needs to be on proper enforcement of laws (or lack thereof in the case of OC), not on signage. Signs mean nothing, lawful or not, if the enforcing body isn't acting responsibly. Likewise, if the enforcing body IS acting responsibly, there need be little care as to what the sign says.
 
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DON`T TREAD ON ME

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I see Gmjacksons point. It throws me everytime he posts because the Capt. at NHP has the last name of Jackson. He is also the person that I am working with on this.

Also I want to post the statute again and highlight a different thought.

A public building that has a metal detector at each public entrance or a sign posted at each public entrance indicating that no firearms are allowed in the building, unless the permittee is not prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of the public building pursuant to subsection 4.

If the law replaced the word indicating, with the word "stating" or the phrase "which read"
or "that reads" I would think that the exact wording would be regulatory, However indicating has a more general and somwhat permissive tone in my book.

NHP has already expressed a willingness to change the signs. (Possibly more negative)while I want to go OC a METRO substation tomorrow, I think we should hold off and get NHP squared away.
There is a whole lot of the brown stuff flying right now and I want to be a little guarded for a while, as things settle in.

How about we pick a library and see if they have a 2-A book to check out, someone was talking about that on another thread.
 

gmijackso

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I see Gmjacksons point. It throws me everytime he posts because the Capt. at NHP has the last name of Jackson. He is also the person that I am working with on this.

No relation. GMI is the college I attended. Jackso is a nickname I acquired there as there wasn't enough character space to support my full middle name of Jackson, and my roomie started calling me Jackso. It stuck. Hence, GMIJackso.

Also I want to post the statute again and highlight a different thought.

A public building that has a metal detector at each public entrance or a sign posted at each public entrance indicating that no firearms are allowed in the building, unless the permittee is not prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of the public building pursuant to subsection 4.

If the law replaced the word indicating, with the word "stating" or the phrase "which read"
or "that reads" I would think that the exact wording would be regulatory, However indicating has a more general and somwhat permissive tone in my book.

I agree that different wording could make the statute even more restrictive. But, it does say that the sign must indicate that NO FIREARMS are allowed. Consider it this way. If the sign were to say "No Revolvers Allowed" would it meet the requirements of the NRS? How about "No Nickel Plated Pistols carried in leather holsters with fringe allowed"? The NRS states that the sign must indicate that NO firearms are allowed. Indicating that a subsection of firearms is not allowed is not the same as indicating that no firearms are allowed and would likely not meet the criteria if ever pressed in a court case. Or, consider the "photo negative" of the same requirement. Saying "posted sign must indicate that no firearms are allowed" is equivalent to saying "posted sign (may/must) not indicate that (a/any) firearm is allowed".

Personally, I hope they DO change the sign. I would like to see the steps slowly taken. If the sign were to change, perhaps somebody WILL conceal carry past the now "illegal" sign and put up a similar fight to yours, and maybe even further progress can be made. At the very least, it would shed light on the conflict that the laws create.
 
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