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Thread: Gun Used Hypocrites

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    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
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    Gun Used Hypocrites

    It has been reported that a "high power" rifle was used in the Fond du Lac police officer shooting tragedy. I have not seen where the specific caliber is identified. Even money says it is a deer hunting caliber.

    I say this because if it was an AR 15, the head WAVE ghoul would likely be dancing with glee while shouting "Assault Rifle! Assult Rifle!"

    If the officers had been shot in the same locations with a 9mm with an extended magazine it's quite likely the outcome would have been different.

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/119352264.html
    Last edited by Flipper; 04-07-2011 at 10:38 AM.
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
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    Regular Member XDFDE45's Avatar
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    They will still find a way to twist it to use to their advantage. Never underestimate people who operate strictly on emotion instead of fact and the lengths they will go to push their agenda.
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    It seems that people there think a slower round is easier on the body. That is false. A faster round makes a smaller hole the faster it goes. As it slows down, it starts to deform. This is where it causes the most damage. I watched a History Channel episode on snipers in Iraq. The sniper said enemy combatants within 300y were getting shot, so they started moving back to 600-800y. The snipers said this is where they were getting more kills than just injuries.
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    Regular Member 1FASTC4's Avatar
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    I would imagine to the person getting shot, all bullets feel high power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    It seems that people there think a slower round is easier on the body. That is false. A faster round makes a smaller hole the faster it goes. As it slows down, it starts to deform. This is where it causes the most damage. I watched a History Channel episode on snipers in Iraq. The sniper said enemy combatants within 300y were getting shot, so they started moving back to 600-800y. The snipers said this is where they were getting more kills than just injuries.
    Snipers are using fmj too though...Funny enough though along the same lines I watched the episode of myth busters where they were trying to evade bullets in a pool. Fast rounds instantly mushroomed and lost all energy the minute they hit the water. Slower bullets went further into the water and didn't deform.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flipper View Post
    It has been reported that a "high power" rifle was used in the Fond du Lac police officer shooting tragedy. I have not seen where the specific caliber is identified. Even money says it is a deer hunting caliber.

    I say this because if it was an AR 15, the head WAVE ghoul would likely be dancing with glee while shouting "Assault Rifle! Assult Rifle!"

    If the officers had been shot in the same locations with a 9mm with an extended magazine it's quite likely the outcome would have been different.

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/119352264.html
    I heard the high powered rifle was a .308, no link because it was on TV

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    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Didn't Geraldo say that a 9mm was a massive bullet after the Tuscon tragedy? I think that Jerri's Kids will be on this like stink on $hit. After all, why let people decide for themselves when you can decide for them.
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    Regular Member Wolf1477's Avatar
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    Eesh, Geraldo's still around? I thought he went the way of the Dodo years ago.

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Flipper - thanks for the post. I pray for the family of the officer who gave his all and for the recovery of the other officer and his K-9 who were wounded.
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    Regular Member anmut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    Didn't Geraldo say that a 9mm was a massive bullet after the Tuscon tragedy? I think that Jerri's Kids will be on this like stink on $hit. After all, why let people decide for themselves when you can decide for them.
    Liberalism: Ideas So Good They Have To Be Mandatory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    It seems that people there think a slower round is easier on the body. That is false. A faster round makes a smaller hole the faster it goes. As it slows down, it starts to deform. This is where it causes the most damage. I watched a History Channel episode on snipers in Iraq. The sniper said enemy combatants within 300y were getting shot, so they started moving back to 600-800y. The snipers said this is where they were getting more kills than just injuries.
    As pointed out, snipers use FMJs and the point of the FMJ is to punch through and injure the person (as opposed to being designed for maximum kill effectiveness). The trick is finding the place where the round can transfer as much energy as possible into the target while also being lethal. This is why people argue about handgun size. Too small/slow and the round is less likely to transfer enough energy to the target to quickly stop/kill them.

    And for the mythbusters thing. The other side of that is that the metal simply couldn't handle the energy exerted on it when transfering mediums (air to water). This caused faster bullets to rip theirselves apart from all of their stored up energy, while the slower bullets were able to handle the stress from transfering mediums and keep going for a bit. I gaurantee you that if a metal was used that could handle the stress from going from air to water that the higher caliber bullets wouldn't of shredded like they did. But then they also wouldn't be as good for killing people in air because they would be too likely to simply punch through the target.

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    Regular Member LR Yote 312's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    The sniper said enemy combatants within 300y were getting shot, so they started moving back to 600-800y. The snipers said this is where they were getting more kills than just injuries.
    Thats because at 300 yrds with the Rem 700 .308 the military is using you really dont have to "dial it" yet. Hold center mass and your guaranteed a hit in the lower abdomin.
    A human torso is generally 36 inches...so you have plenty of room.

    You bad guy wont feel like running a marathon but odds are good he will live....maybe long enough to interrogate.

    600 aint all that hard ....its after 600 that things change some.

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    To clarify a few things.

    Militaries use FMJs because they are cheaper to produce, and because hollowpoint ammunition is banned for use between militaries fighting each other while conducting flag operations under the Hague Accord or the Geneva Convention, I don't remember which right this instant.

    As Protias said, as faster rounds slow down, they start to deform, that ALSO happens when they transfer from super-sonic to subsonic, rounds can even start tumbling after that point; primary reason for the reports that the 5.56 is an inappropriate round for engaging targets beyond 400 yards. I can only speculate that the rounds into water thing, with the faster rounds unfolding, is due to a similar principle, round transferring and being slowed such a great speed in such a short amount of time, seems right.

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Its my understanding that even the officer had been wearing Kevlar, most ANY (except a .22LR) round wouldve penetrated it...thus, any rifle is 'high powered' to the antis...

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    It's my understanding it was a Kalashnikov family rifle. That appeared in one news report, and I heard it again from someone who went to high-school with the deceased officer.

    Hasn't appeared anywhere else.

    The silence on this, does make me think it's a FUDD gun. But, on the other hand, maybe there is some actual real perspective on things being used this time. It was Fon Du Lac, not Madison you know.

  16. #16
    Regular Member LR Yote 312's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGdude View Post
    primary reason for the reports that the 5.56 is an inappropriate round for engaging targets beyond 400 yards.
    That characteristic has more to do with barrel length itself.

    Properlly barreled a 5.56/.223 can reach farther than most would think.

    I know for a fact the 5.56/.223 can reach 800 effectively.

    LR Yote
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    Regular Member XDFDE45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LR Yote 312 View Post
    That characteristic has more to do with barrel length itself.

    Properlly barreled a 5.56/.223 can reach farther than most would think.

    I know for a fact the 5.56/.223 can reach 800 effectively.

    LR Yote
    Very true. Remember the original M16 had a 20" barrel (IIRC) and now they are cut down to 14.5" for the most part.
    Last edited by XDFDE45; 04-08-2011 at 04:00 PM.
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    The biggest difference I've seen between the M4 (14.5" barrel) and the M16 (20" barrel) was the distance between the front sight and the rear sight , which is negated by optics anyways. There is probably only 100 FPS different between them from barrel length, so there is a bigger difference between the different ammo being used. Even the manual states the difference between the M4 and M16 for a point target is different by only 50M. That being said, some branches are required to qualify on targets on 500M on the M16. The 5.56 round is very light, but it will still hit the target without tumbling out to 600m. Hopefully they let me use the 1000m range before I leave.

    Edit: Some of the old M16s were 1/12 twist, which was designed for slower ammo.
    Last edited by nevinsb; 04-09-2011 at 06:37 AM.

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    I do have some questions about the article that hopefully someone can help clear up for me. First is says that he had two bullets in his chest then it says he showe the entry and exit wounds. Did the bullets go all the way through or did they lodge in his chest. This is not a big deal but just curious. Second he contributes wearing two vests for saving his life but it appears that the bullets went through both vests and either into or through him. How much good did the vests do? I am glad he wasn't killed but this is a confusing story to me. If he ha not been wearing a vest at all and the shooter was using FMJ then the bullets would have passed through without fragmenting causing less damage. Or what am I missing here. Inquiring minds want to know.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anmut View Post
    Liberalism: Ideas So Good They Have To Be Mandatory.
    Geraldo Rivera is on Fox, actually. You know, Fox, that frothing bastion of leftist propaganda...

    Geraldo is not a "liberal" or a "conservative". He's a media ***** and will say ANYTHING that gets ratings...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PT111 View Post
    Did the bullets go all the way through or did they lodge in his chest. This is not a big deal but just curious.
    Saying that this is not a big deal--in the investigation of a shooting--is like saying the fact that the exit would in the BACK of JFK's head isn't a big deal in establishing that the shooter was behind him.

    Did you work for the Warren Commission, or what?

    Of course it's a big deal. It's a HUGE deal, determining whether the bullets lodged in his body, or were through-and-through shots. Such a difference gives TREMENDOUS clues as to the ballistics of the bullet, the nature of the weapon used, the distance of the shooter, and other MAJOR evidence...

    Not a big deal? Where did you learn deductive reasoning, "Denial University?" Or maybe it was at the "Academy of Don't Confuse Me With the Facts?"...


    Quote Originally Posted by PT111 View Post
    Second he contributes wearing two vests for saving his life but it appears that the bullets went through both vests and either into or through him. How much good did the vests do?
    Most LEOs wear (and are issued) Level IIA body armor. There is not a SINGLE piece of Level IIA Body Armor that will stop ANY rifle round--including 22LR. They are not designed for that, not tested for that, and stopping rifle rounds is not in the certification requirements for Level IIA body armor.

    Unless this cop was wearing Level IV, or rigid panel inserts, a .308 would go through is body armor like it was going through a down parka...

    The body armor he was wearing didn't save his life at all. In fact, it very well MAY end up causing him some SERIOUS health problems, due to the nylon and kevlar/Spectra fibers being dragged into the wound channel by the bullet. There is a VERY high probability that he will end up with some pretty severe infections because of the deep-tissue fiber contamination of his wounds.
    Last edited by Dreamer; 04-09-2011 at 06:51 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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