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Thread: Do we really want constitutional carry?

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    Do we really want constitutional carry?

    Now, I know this thread title probably gives you the idea that I support a license to do a constitutional right. I DO NOT. I was reading up on some gun laws last night and found the GFSZA. This law is ridiculous. It states that ...

    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.


    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;

    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

    (iii) that is— (I) not loaded; and (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;

    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or

    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

    Okay, so, in order to be in compliance with the federal law, we must obtain a permit from the state in which the school is located, and the state must have law enforcement authorities verify that the individual is eligible to receive a permit. This brings me to the first possible issue: Does FL have law enforcement authorities check permit applications? Some states don't. (Forgive my ignorance, I do not live in FL yet) If we were to have constitutional carry, it would virtually eliminate legal carry within city limits, where there are MANY schools, because no one would have a permit. Furthermore, if you plan on taking a road trip somewhere, chances are, you don't have a permit from every state you are going to be traveling through. There is a decent chance that you will be breaking a federal law, if you get off on an exit for a hotel or food, as there is probably a school somewhere. I think we need to focus on changing the federal law, before we move for constitutional carry. What are your thoughts?

  2. #2
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Pure clutter. Most of this bedwetter crap is nothing but clutter. Prevents nothing. Here... try this: Firearms shall remain holstered/slung at all time. 'Unnecessary and careless handling or discharge of any firearm withing the boundaries of "X" is a Class 6 Felony punishible by "Y". There... pretty much understandable.

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    I completely agree. I feel sorry for you, since you live in AZ. "Felonies" are probably committed every 5 minutes there...Lol

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    Regular Member ~*'Phoenix'*~'s Avatar
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    Of course we want constitutional carry! We just want to have the evil Federal Gun Free Scheel Zone Act repealed first !
    And/or still let every state give permits - for only this exact purpose-, just not required for carry otherwise. maybe nation-wide reciprocity of state permits would fix this, by making any one state's the same as any other's?
    And/or everyone move to rural areas and/or homeschool/private school their kids, to show them how we feel about 'gun free schools.'
    Last edited by ~*'Phoenix'*~; 04-07-2011 at 03:36 PM.

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Yes.
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  6. #6
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Yes, we do.

    I wonder how many felonies and misdemeanors are committed in Fl every day by people picking kids up at the local government reeducation camp "school". I'd say thousands each day throughout the state.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Yeah, I'm all for constitutional carry, don't get me wrong. All I'm saying is that we need to repeal the federal nazi laws, so they don't become a problem when we do get constitutional carry.

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    Permits, where still required, should be available as a pad of blank forms. You tear one off, fill in your name, and put it in your wallet. No expiration date. Lack of a permit on your person should not be prima facia evidence of no permit.

    Once this system is in place for a while it would be good evidence to defeat the ridiculous GFSZA.

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    Regular Member Golden Eagle's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Here Lets get Congress to do at least this:

    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is HAS A licensed LICENSE to do so THAT IS RECOGNIZED IF NEEDED by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

    There was that so hard... Oh yeah with our government it would be
    Last edited by Golden Eagle; 04-08-2011 at 10:04 AM.
    The news media plays politics more than the politicians do.

  10. #10
    Regular Member ~*'Phoenix'*~'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Eagle View Post
    Here Lets get Congress to do at least this:

    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is HAS A licensed LICENSE to do so THAT IS RECOGNIZED IF NEEDED by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

    There was that so hard... Oh yeah with our government it would be
    How about this one? Plain ol' Constitutional Carry, revoke the 1000ft "magic shield" around schools in the FGFSZA, and federal preemption of all state, local, and private policies against firearms securely enclosed in vehicles anywhere? That would pretty much take care of everything...

  11. #11
    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepShootin View Post
    Okay, so, in order to be in compliance with the federal law, we must obtain a permit from the state in which the school is located...
    How are people in Vermont carrying (VT does not issue permits but allows unlicensed OC and CC)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfish View Post
    How are people in Vermont carrying (VT does not issue permits but allows unlicensed OC and CC)?
    In the eyes of the feds, they are carrying illegally. GFSZA is not a heavily enforced law. There have been 8-10 cases since 1995. However, I don't want to be one of the unlucky ones that gets prosecuted. I won't vote for constitutional carry until everything at the federal level is fixed.

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    Even with the permit you are still technically boogered if you discharge the firearm, even if you're shooting to save a bus load of nuns.


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  14. #14
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    In AZ permits are still available for things like;

    1) GFSZ
    2) Carry in Restaurants that serve alcohol (yes it's ironic that we have constitutional carry but can't carry in restaurants that serve alcohol)
    3) Reciprocity

    I don't think we enforce GFSZ without mitigating circumstances. I mentioned it in another thread, in Mesa we have a gun store literrally across the street from a school and the police don't stand outside arresting everyone who comes and goes with a firearm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    In AZ permits are still available for things like;

    1) GFSZ
    2) Carry in Restaurants that serve alcohol (yes it's ironic that we have constitutional carry but can't carry in restaurants that serve alcohol)
    3) Reciprocity

    I don't think we enforce GFSZ without mitigating circumstances. I mentioned it in another thread, in Mesa we have a gun store literrally across the street from a school and the police don't stand outside arresting everyone who comes and goes with a firearm.

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    Hmmm ... I didn't know that. That's very interesting information. On another note, I was told that police can't enforce federal laws, they can only enforce state laws. Is this true?

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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepShootin View Post
    Hmmm ... I didn't know that. That's very interesting information. On another note, I was told that police can't enforce federal laws, they can only enforce state laws. Is this true?
    Ever heard of the federal government suing AZ for enforcing federal laws?

    As someone on this forum mentioned bank robbery is a federal crime but the local police will still arrest for it.

  17. #17
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Arizona has a law that basically says if you legally own the gun you are considered to have a permit. So really Arizona kinda doesn't have "permitless" carry but this was only to get around the GFSZ. This same topic was brought up in Vermonts forum, apparently in Vermont it's just not something they enforce. Also it is my understanding vehicle carry is legal in FL without a permit. Well those ppl are in violation everytime they are within 1000 feet of a school and I don't think any of them are being convicted. I could be wrong tho.

    Also tech if you have a permit from let's say Michigan and are carrying in FL or any other state that my recognize their permit, anytime that person s within 1000 ft of a school they're breaking the law because their permit was not issued by the state they are in.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
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    The Federal GFSZ is patently unconstitutional and someday will be overturned, if not repealed. I for one, wouldn't hold up Constitutional Carry over a law that isn't enforced. Florida really needs Constitutional Carry. I do think that over the next several years, the Constitutional Carry movement will pick up even more steam. It is only a matter of time before it catches on like the trend towards Shall Issue.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    The Federal GFSZ is patently unconstitutional and someday will be overturned, if not repealed. I for one, wouldn't hold up Constitutional Carry over a law that isn't enforced. Florida really needs Constitutional Carry. I do think that over the next several years, the Constitutional Carry movement will pick up even more steam. It is only a matter of time before it catches on like the trend towards Shall Issue.
    I disagree. We're only sliding by on Green because it appeases the Statists; which Florida's population is almost 100% comprised of.

    I look forward to the day when I eat my words. But I'm will willing to bet I'll die before that day comes. Most likely, at the hands of said Statists.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    A year ago there were 2 states with constitutional carry. This year there will be 6 or 7 depending on what happens with Wisconsin (az,wy,mt,nh). Id and maybe Ut will be in the next 2 years. That's a pretty good start.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  21. #21
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    Under Montana law, everyone is considered to be licensed to possess a firearm in a school zone, even those without concealment permits, if I'm not mistaken.

    Just because you have a permit to carry a concealed weapon does not mean that it is a permit to carry at a school zone. For instance, in my state my permit allows me to carry concealed, but open carry is legal without a permit and the permit to carry concealed does not currently expand the number of places one can carry. It is just a permit on the method of carry. In fact, one still has to open carry in some places where concealed carry is legal.

    Might a judge rule that your permit satisfies the federal law? Maybe, but it is merely wishful thinking to assume that it does. I don't think Florida law mentions anywhere that the carry permit is a license to "possess a firearm in a school zone." The federal law requires that the state issued a license "to do so."

    Does constitutional carry progress the rights of people that want to carry? Absolutely.

    Supposedly, U.S. vs Lopez invalidated the school zone gun ban anyway, although people have been convicted on the altered version which in my opinion is unconstitutional for the same reason the earlier one was found to be by the court.
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 04-09-2011 at 05:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Felid`Maximus View Post
    Under Montana law, everyone is considered to be licensed to possess a firearm in a school zone, even those without concealment permits, if I'm not mistaken.

    Just because you have a permit to carry a concealed weapon does not mean that it is a permit to carry at a school zone. For instance, in my state my permit allows me to carry concealed, but open carry is legal without a permit and the permit to carry concealed does not currently expand the number of places one can carry. It is just a permit on the method of carry. In fact, one still has to open carry in some places where concealed carry is legal.

    Might a judge rule that your permit satisfies the federal law? Maybe, but it is merely wishful thinking to assume that it does. I don't think Florida law mentions anywhere that the carry permit is a license to "possess a firearm in a school zone." The federal law requires that the state issued a license "to do so."

    Does constitutional carry progress the rights of people that want to carry? Absolutely.

    Supposedly, U.S. vs Lopez invalidated the school zone gun ban anyway, although people have been convicted on the altered version which in my opinion is unconstitutional for the same reason the earlier one was found to be by the court.
    The federal law requires a license to be issued, in order for an individual to posess a firearm, not posess a firearm in a school zone.
    Last edited by KeepShootin; 04-09-2011 at 06:14 PM.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepShootin View Post
    The federal law requires a license to be issued, in order for an individual to posess a firearm, not posess a firearm in a school zone.
    I don't have a Federal License for any of my guns... I'm confused.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    I don't have a Federal License for any of my guns... I'm confused.
    I was referring to the GFSZ law and state licenses. Maximus implied that the federal law (GFSZ), , ,required that states issue a license to an individual, to carry in a school zone, when that is not the case. The federal law only requires that, states issue a license to an individual, to posses a firearm.

  25. #25
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    That is the one nice thing about having to register guns in Michigan. Our "permit to purchase" is by definition of law a license to transport, purchase, posesse, and carry a pistol so someone like me who dosnt have a CPL can still be in the "school zone", just not on school grounds.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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