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Thread: Open Carry inside a vehicle? What is correct?

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    Regular Member ryan7068's Avatar
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    Open Carry inside a vehicle? What is correct?

    Hello all. I have been around firearms my entire life but am relatively new to open carry as I am from California where however legal it can be quite a trick to stay out of jail. Anyway I was wondering what methods of OC inside a vehicle work best. Is keeping it holstered on your hip allowed? It may be in plain view just not from a police officer approaching the driver window. Is there a method to keep it safely unholstered in plain view and prevent it from moving? Ultimately I have no plans of getting pulled over but I would like to be informed on the topic. Thank you all and I have found this website quite helpful.

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    Regular Member ryan7068's Avatar
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    Traffic stop stories(mostly Hampton Roads)

    If anyone can comment on traffic stops while OC particullarly in Hampton Roads as of late, that may be helpful as well. Thank You

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Welcome to Virgina and FREEDOM!

    There are no special tricks or must does in Va. Holster up OCing IWB or OWB on foot, in a vehicle, or in a restaurant booth w/strong side to the wall.

    The test is how you are wearing it (whether covered/concealed by clothing) that counts. It is NOT from the perspective of the viewer. The entire gun does not have to be visible as in some states. It only has to be readily identifiable by common observation.

    You are NOT required to notify a LEO whether in a consensual conversation or otherwise. Some choose to do so though, I do not. Don't lie if asked directly though.

    You are NOT required to show ID on a whim - I will verbally give my name and where I generally live. No permit can legally be demanded if you are OCing, even if you have one.

    Strangely one cannot consume an adult beverage if CCing, but can if OCing. Most of us consider it bad form though.

    Look to the bottom of the page on this link for cites and more:
    http://www.vcdl.org/static/ccw.html
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 04-08-2011 at 10:54 PM. Reason: fixed it
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    ... Strangely one can consume an adult beverage if CCing, ...
    I take it you meant to say can not consume alcohol while CCing ?

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    I take it you meant to say can not consume alcohol while CCing ?
    Yes, that is what he meant
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    I take it you meant to say can not consume alcohol while CCing ?
    Yep meant cannot. Went back and fixed it - thanks.

    Spell check doesn't quite catch what I should in proof reading.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan7068 View Post
    Anyway I was wondering what methods of OC inside a vehicle work best. Is keeping it holstered on your hip allowed? It may be in plain view just not from a police officer approaching the driver window. Is there a method to keep it safely unholstered in plain view and prevent it from moving?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryan7068 View Post
    If anyone can comment on traffic stops while OC particullarly in Hampton Roads as of late, that may be helpful as well. Thank You

    You may find this training class of interest to you.....

    http://proactiveshooters.com/general...d-carry-in-va/
    Last edited by ProShooter; 04-08-2011 at 11:14 PM.
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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    If you where OCing, in a room full of 100 people, and you are in the very back with the gun agianst the wall, its OPEN CARRY. Because you can see it, as long as you dont have it coverd by a shirt or jacket.

    Why don't you come to a dinner?

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...den-April-13th

    There is a dinner next week, Greenbrier area.


    I believe guns and alcohol don't mix just like cars and alcohol.
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 04-08-2011 at 11:18 PM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Regular Member ryan7068's Avatar
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    Sounds good

    I will check my plans and reply on your invite inside the next two days. Are you OC to dinner or was your comment refering to you planning to have a drink and not carrying?

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan7068 View Post
    I will check my plans and reply on your invite inside the next two days. Are you OC to dinner or was your comment refering to you planning to have a drink and not carrying?


    Refering to planning NOT have a drink and carrying :-) I will not go disarmed unless I have to!

    Drinks just dont mix with cars & guns.
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 04-09-2011 at 12:08 AM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan7068 View Post
    I will check my plans and reply on your invite inside the next two days. Are you OC to dinner or was your comment refering to you planning to have a drink and not carrying?
    First off, welcome to our fine state. You will quickly find that Virginia is the most lenient and gun-friendly state in the South. We hope you adopt Virginia traditions and ways now that you are here. When either OC'ing or CC'ing, do so with a demeanor that projects a positive and confident persona. Don't be afraid to wear your firearm on your hip and don't worry about being self-conscious. Be polite, actually be extra polite. You are an emissary for all of us who carry and we all want the general public and our employees/servants (read that as officials and police) to see us as responsible and respectful adults.

    As has been stated, you may not partake of alcoholic beverages in Virginia establishments while carrying concealed. However, you can if you are open carrying but all of us on this site, and other places, consider this to be bad form as it tends to send a negative message to not only other carriers but non-carriers as well. The posters who have already said that guns and alcohol don't mix are spot on.

    BTW, just so you won't be confused, there are no bars in Virginia.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    BTW, just so you won't be confused, there are no bars in Virginia.
    For the benefit of the OP -

    Establishments cannot just sell alcoholic beverages for on premises consumption as a bar would. They must have a certain percentage of their sales from food. Therefore restaurants may have an ABC (Alcohol Beverage Commission) license or not.

    Point - one may OC or CC in state ABC package stores and in such private stores that sell alcohol.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    I take it you meant to say can not consume alcohol while CCing ?
    My literal reading of the law is that you can consume OC or CC as long as you are not concealing when you enter.

    My personal recommendation is to never mix the juice and the boomsticks.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    My literal reading of the law is that you can consume OC or CC as long as you are not concealing when you enter.
    Understand, but I am NOT volunteering to test that -
    Unless you will be the judge
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    My literal reading of the law is that you can consume OC or CC as long as you are not concealing when you enter.
    Do I read your comment correctly that you infer from your literal reading of the law that one may enter an establishment OCing, then once inside, conceal the firearm and it's ok to consume alcoholic beverages?
    Last edited by JamesCanby; 04-10-2011 at 11:17 AM.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    One thing to be careful of and IANAL...

    If you immediately invoke your right to remain silent, and you're just on foot OC-ing, you are not required to show ID or to show your CPL (after all you're not concealed).

    However, my understanding is once you start talking you have waived your rights in part and the LEO can ask and even insist that you give your name and maybe birth date, which he may record on a notepad.

    I'd suggest immediately saying, if a LEO asks 'can I talk to you', immediately saying in a calm way, 'no, sorry, I'm busy' and walking away. You might say 'Why am I being detained?' and then if he says you're not, walking away.

    Once you start talking you've made it a consensual encounter and there may be some leeway on the part of the LEO to demand things. Just my interpretation.

    Welcome to the Va forum on OCDO.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    One thing to be careful of and IANAL...

    If you immediately invoke your right to remain silent, and you're just on foot OC-ing, you are not required to show ID or to show your CPL (after all you're not concealed).

    However, my understanding is once you start talking you have waived your rights in part and the LEO can ask and even insist that you give your name and maybe birth date, which he may record on a notepad.

    I'd suggest immediately saying, if a LEO asks 'can I talk to you', immediately saying in a calm way, 'no, sorry, I'm busy' and walking away. You might say 'Why am I being detained?' and then if he says you're not, walking away.

    Once you start talking you've made it a consensual encounter and there may be some leeway on the part of the LEO to demand things. Just my interpretation.

    Welcome to the Va forum on OCDO.
    You may end a consensual conversation at any time. A Leo can "ask" for anything he likes; whether you provide it is up to you. Because you initially respond does not trigger a legal authority to "demand" (under color of law) that which he would not already have.

    Unless you have been stopped for a driving infraction, no law requires you to present ID or prove who you are - Va. is not a "stop and identify" state.

    BTW - the Va. permit is a CHP, concealed handgun permit.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    My literal reading of the law is that you can consume OC or CC as long as you are not concealing when you enter.

    My personal recommendation is to never mix the juice and the boomsticks.
    I would like to see your cite of the law in which you read such a liberal translation...

    18.2-302
    J1. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

    I read J1 that regardless of the state of carry if you have a permit and are under the influence of alcohol you are guilty of a class 1 misdemeanor. (I also read that this section applies while you are carrying a weapon)

    J3. No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. However, nothing in this subsection shall apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer.

    I read J3 to say that if you carry a concealed handgun (regardless of how you entered the premises) and consume alcohol you are guilty. I wouldn't want to be the one to split the legal hairs of a untried law, with no case law to back it up. I also read that if you go to friends house carrying concealed there is no law that says you may not consume alcohol with carrying concealed.

    There are a great many hairs that a lawyer could probably split...
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    I would like to see your cite of the law in which you read such a liberal translation...

    18.2-302
    J1. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

    I read J1 that regardless of the state of carry if you have a permit and are under the influence of alcohol you are guilty of a class 1 misdemeanor. (I also read that this section applies while you are carrying a weapon)

    J3. No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. However, nothing in this subsection shall apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer.

    I read J3 to say that if you carry a concealed handgun (regardless of how you entered the premises) and consume alcohol you are guilty. I wouldn't want to be the one to split the legal hairs of a untried law, with no case law to back it up. I also read that if you go to friends house carrying concealed there is no law that says you may not consume alcohol with carrying concealed.

    There are a great many hairs that a lawyer could probably split...
    Forgive my intrusion, but it seems to me as if they go out of the way to specify CONCEALED handgun as opposed to simply saying a handgun carried in any capacity. I'm new to the whole OC thing as well, having moved up here from FL and all so any clarity is welcome.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Hawkenbyrd View Post
    Forgive my intrusion, but it seems to me as if they go out of the way to specify CONCEALED handgun as opposed to simply saying a handgun carried in any capacity. I'm new to the whole OC thing as well, having moved up here from FL and all so any clarity is welcome.
    Not an intrusion at all - welcome aboard Bill Hawkenbird.

    In restaurants serving alcohol:

    1) With OC it is legal to consume, but generally frowned on by most here.

    2) CC and no consumption is legal; CC and drinking is not.

    Aside from those that may split a hair or two over the wording of CC and imbibing, it was the obvious intent of our General Assembly that such would be illegal and I am too close to 100% in agreement that a judge would see it that way also. I doubt there will be a taker to intentionally test that part of the law - too much risk for too little return.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    I would like to see your cite of the law in which you read such a liberal translation...

    18.2-302
    J1. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun (A concealed one?) in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

    I read J1 that regardless of the state of carry if you have a permit and are under the influence of alcohol you are guilty of a class 1 misdemeanor. (I also read that this section applies while you are carrying a weapon)

    J3. No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club (but not one who OCs a handgun onto the premises... and then changes to CC) as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. However, nothing in this subsection shall apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer.

    I read J3 to say that if you carry a concealed handgun (regardless of how you entered the premises) and consume alcohol you are guilty. I wouldn't want to be the one to split the legal hairs of a untried law, with no case law to back it up. I also read that if you go to friends house carrying concealed there is no law that says you may not consume alcohol with carrying concealed.

    There are a great many hairs that a lawyer could probably split...

    Having said that, I agree with G.S. The section could definitely be worded better to reflect what I think their intent was though.
    Last edited by t33j; 04-12-2011 at 10:50 AM.
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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    so, to return to the title of the thread .. what is allowed or not allowed when carrying in a vehicle? For instance (and I'm not saying I've done this because the only one I have is used on my hip) could a person securely mount a SERPA holster to the top of their dash and keep a handgun there while driving and be within the law? Or does OC in a vehicle mean you either leave it on the seat next to you or wear it on your person?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    so, to return to the title of the thread .. what is allowed or not allowed when carrying in a vehicle? For instance (and I'm not saying I've done this because the only one I have is used on my hip) could a person securely mount a SERPA holster to the top of their dash and keep a handgun there while driving and be within the law? Or does OC in a vehicle mean you either leave it on the seat next to you or wear it on your person?
    The concept can be confusing, but OC is not dependent on where the observer is or where you are. The deciding factor is how you are carrying it. If you are wearing/carrying the holstered handgun so that it would be readily recognizable as a gun by common observation you are OCing. If you are in a car, in a building, behind a sign, in a booth or whatever; you are still OCing.

    I have been in a traffic accident, stopped for minor infraction (no ticket), been seen exiting my truck by LEOs, and been at sobriety check points all while OCing in my vehicle. No problems associated with it.

    To answer the Serpa to the dash question - yes you could, but when you leave the vehicle the Serpa, if left there, might attract attention. That would not be my preference anyway.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 04-11-2011 at 11:46 PM. Reason: added
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Thanks for the clarification

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    ... To answer the Serpa to the dash question - yes you could, but when you leave the vehicle the Serpa, if left there, might attract attention. That would not be my preference anyway.
    Not my intention to do it .. just used it as an example to ask if it would be legal to display the handgun on the dash without getting the comments about it sliding everywhere when you take corners too quickly. Far cheaper in my car to just put it in the open center dashtop storage with the grip poking out and up slightly
    Last edited by scouser; 04-11-2011 at 11:56 PM.

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    Open Carry in a Vehicle?

    I have been attempting to research this for the past couple days, and was looking for some assistance. I've found, via Google, posts that refer back to this forum and a couple others from people stating that open carry while in a vehicle is legal. However, I would prefer to find something specifically stated in Virginia law that pertains to this and denotes how the weapon is to be legally open carried (loaded or must be unloaded).

    What I've found per law are the following two articles:

    Virginia Code 18.2-308
    http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/18.2-308.HTM

    Virginia State Constitution Article I, Section 13
    http://legis.state.va.us/laws/search/constitution.htm

    18.2-308 has nothing stating anything other than weapon must be unloaded and properly secured in a case basically.

    State Constitution Article I, Section 13 is only telling me that my right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed upon which seems redundant to the 2nd Amendment.

    Both articles were either produced from my search, or referenced by others, but as stated previously...neither explicitly seem to provide information on open carrying.

    This page:
    http://opencarry.org/va.html

    ...also states that it is allowed, but does not cite a reference or what the status of the firearm has to be.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...n-Carry-in-Car
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...hip-in-my-Jeep

    and...

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...1878-Car-carry

    ...were the posts I've found that keep popping up, and the first case law reference on the 2nd thread seems to help a little. The third is the most promising with proper back and forth, and what appears to be clarification. Even someone stating that carrying holstered as if you were open carrying and just sitting down in a seat would not be considered concealed. I would prefer doing that as I don't like the idea of my gun just laying in the seat, especially in the event I would need to make an emergency stop and the gun goes flying:

    Been covered many times here before, but.....

    If you are carrying the gun openly, that fact that the gun may/may not be visible to someone standing outside the car doesnt change the fact that the gun is still being carried openly by you. Your seated position is normal and you are not doing anything overt to conceal the firearm while driving. Your position is a temporary position.
    I understand that laws are there to provide what one may not do, and basically anything not prohibited is permissible (generally I suppose). However, again based on what I found, 18.2-308 seems to prohibit open carry while in a vehicle by stating how one MUST carry a firearm when not a CCW permit holder (which I am not currently, but am working on getting ASAP) as stated in sections 3, 4, and 5:

    3. Any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization who is at, or going to or from, an established shooting range, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;

    4. Any regularly enrolled member of a weapons collecting organization who is at, or going to or from, a bona fide weapons exhibition, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;

    5. Any person carrying such weapons between his place of abode and a place of purchase or repair, provided the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
    ...and even that seems like it's telling me I can't carry unless I'm going to a range, gun exhibition, and/or to have the firearm repaired.

    I'm just really unsure of how to read all of this, and I think that's kind of the point. Make it confusing so as to trick the person into believing one thing only to have them commit a "crime" so that they can legally disarm you. I really don't wish to do anything to jeopardize my 2nd Amendment right, especially when I'm just now starting to exercise it. Have been around and shot guns almost my whole life, but have either used other peoples guns or rented from ranges until 2 weeks ago when I bought my first. I definitely don't wish it to be my last, however.

    Basically I'm looking for something a bit more concrete than "well, my friend said it was ok..." sort of thing. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    On a side note, and placing (hopefully sound) faith in the posts I referenced, I did open carry today. After leaving the shooting range I placed the gun (full mag, but no round chambered) in my passenger seat and ran to Bass Pro Shops in Hampton for ammo, and Zero's in Hampton for lunch before returning home. At each place I parked, holstered the weapon while in the car, and proceeded to do what I needed to do. Both places without any incident and no one that seemed to noticed even cared. It was my first time open carrying, and was pretty neat to be able to do that...legally. Although, I was shaking like a leaf as If I were doing something wrong the entire time lol.

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