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Question About ATF Seizure of an AR15 that was handed down to me..

jjcharris

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
20
Location
racine, Wisconsin, USA
I recently got into my possession a Bushmaster AR15 that my father owned from years past. I have yet to find any paperwork pertaining to it. It was missing the charging handle and other assorted parts so I brought it to my local gun shop for help. Within 35 minutes I received a call informing me that the ATF would be seizing it due to an illegal length barrel. They told me I have no option and that they will take the whole firearm, not just the upper receiver or barrel. Any help on this matter as to how I could possibly retain possession of my firearm would be greatly appreciated.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Call a lawyer. Now. As I understand it, you are open to prosecution for possession of a short-barrelled rifle while not also having the proper paperwork from BATFE.

This is not just a matter of retaining a family heirloom; this is a matter of keeping you from being prosecuted. The BATFE is not an organization upon whose benevolence one wants to rely. All it takes is a ***** agent and you could be dealing with legal trouble.

Then, ask a moderator to delete this thread so its not hanging out here for everybody in the world to stumble upon, including the government.

Well, actually, before calling the lawyer, you might want to see if you can verify that the barrel is indeed a length that requires BATFE paperwork. This could be a gunstore screw-up.
 
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Darkshadow62988

Activist Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
238
Location
Iowa
Call a lawyer. Now. As I understand it, you are open to prosecution for possession of a short-barrelled rifle while not also having the proper paperwork from BATFE.

This is not just a matter of retaining a family heirloom; this is a matter of keeping you from being prosecuted. The BATFE is not an organization upon whose benevolence one wants to rely. All it takes is a ***** agent and you could be dealing with legal trouble.

Then, ask a moderator to delete this thread so its not hanging out here for everybody in the world to stumble upon, including the government.

Well, actually, before calling the lawyer, you might want to see if you can verify that the barrel is indeed a length that requires BATFE paperwork. This could be a gunstore screw-up.

^+1
 

XDFDE45

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2009
Messages
823
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
Call a lawyer. Now. As I understand it, you are open to prosecution for possession of a short-barrelled rifle while not also having the proper paperwork from BATFE.

This is not just a matter of retaining a family heirloom; this is a matter of keeping you from being prosecuted. The BATFE is not an organization upon whose benevolence one wants to rely. All it takes is a ***** agent and you could be dealing with legal trouble.

Then ask a moderator to delete this thread so its not hanging here for everybody in the world to stumble upon, including the government.

Well, actually, before calling the lawyer, you might want to see if you can verify that the barrel is indeed a length that requires BATFE paperwork. This could be a gunstore screw-up.
+1000
 

Grimes

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
132
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Sounds like this local gun shop isn't any friends of yours. They turned you in instead of first telling YOU of the problem. That's pretty low.

1st, Why did you bring it to a gun shop for a few missing parts?

2nd, Why did you leave it at the gun shop?

3rd, Why didn't you check to make sure it was legal before taking it in public? Are you new to firearms?
 
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Felid`Maximus

Activist Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
1,711
Location
Reno, Nevada, USA
Call a lawyer. Now. As I understand it, you are open to prosecution for possession of a short-barrelled rifle while not also having the proper paperwork from BATFE.

Which is a federal felony offense... years in prison and thousands of dollars in fines.
 
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Highline

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Messages
25
Location
, ,
Are you people kidding?

This guy had no criminal intent. He received a firearm that was passed down to him and he brought it to a gun shop to ask questions.

I think the ATF is a horrible (and unconstitutional) government agency, but this guy couldn't be convicted of anything. You need to act knowingly or purposely with regards to possession of an unregistered firearm. He became aware of the firearm being prohibited after discussing it with a licensed firearms dealer. No jury would convict him.

Why delete the thread? The ATF already is aware/has the firearm... so they already know about it. His posting here simply furthers my argument that he didn't act knowingly.

To the OP: You may be able to register the firearm with the ATF. Call whomever you spoke to and tell them you would like to go through the process. They might be able to help you.

Either help you or they'll send your gun to Mexico.
 
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Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
No jury would convict him.

Why delete the thread? The ATF already is aware/has the firearm... so they already know about it. His posting here simply furthers my argument that he didn't act knowingly.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse...

And as is often the case, the BATFE would NEVER let this go to trial--they would just arrest him, charge him, and have him sentenced. Rule of Law does not apply in most BATFE proceedings.

Welcome to the "Century of Change" folks...
 

Highline

Regular Member
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Oct 31, 2007
Messages
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Location
, ,
Ignorance of the law is no excuse...

And as is often the case, the BATFE would NEVER let this go to trial--they would just arrest him, charge him, and have him sentenced. Rule of Law does not apply in most BATFE proceedings.

Welcome to the "Century of Change" folks...

FFL's are quasi government agents. This fellow bringing the firearm to an FFL would be like him showing up at an ATF office with a firearm, presenting it to them, and asking them about it.

Once I was on-duty and some people showed up at the police station with five marijuana plants in the back of their car. They said they found them growing in the woods at their home... and wanted me to have them. Do you think if I had arrested them that they would ever have been convicted? Of course not.

This guy wasn't trying to conceal anything, he had legitimate questions about a firearm that was given to him by a family member. Ignorance of the law may not be an excuse, but it can negate a state of mind which must be proven for criminal conduct to be proven.
 

Blk97F150

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
1,179
Location
Virginia
Ignorance of the law may not be an excuse, but it can negate a state of mind which must be proven for criminal conduct to be proven.

Where does it say that a 'state of mind for criminal conduct' must be proven when possessing an illegal/restricted firearm?
 

Highline

Regular Member
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Oct 31, 2007
Messages
25
Location
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Yeah good luck with that.... in federal court, against the BATF....

It isn't against the BATF in federal court, it would be against the respective US Attorney or US Attorney General. All BATF (and any other federal law enforcement agency) does is collect evidence, make arrests, and forward the case to the US Attorney/AG.

Our judicial branch is a criminal defendant’s last line of protection against the erosion of criminal intent. Case in point, just yesterday, a federal judge threw out an indictment against a former drug company in-house lawyer who allegedly violated federal law by facilitating the “marketing” of a drug for an off-label use. According to Judge Roger Titus’s ruling memo, during the grand jury proceedings, one prosecutor misstated the law with regards to the advice that the defendant may have received from other lawyers about the off-label communications, while another prosecutor flatly told the jury the issue was irrelevant to their deliberations. Quite to the contrary, Judge Titus wrote, ”advice of counsel” is not only an affirmative defense, ”but rather negates the wrongful intent required to commit the crimes charged.” Whether the prosecutors were, as the defense counsel in the case alleges, intentionally misstating the law, or were just negligent in doing so was not clear. Judge Titus dismissed the charges on that basis, though he did allow the government to seek a new indictment.

(from http://wlflegalpulse.com/2011/03/25/criminal-intent-what-is-that-and-why-do-we-need-to-prove-it/ )

This guy brought a firearm he just received to a federal agent to seek advice.

If I found an unregistered machinegun in the woods and picked it up and delivered it to a FFL, should I be arrested and thrown in prison? Come on.
 
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Blk97F150

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
1,179
Location
Virginia
The owners of the gun store had little choice. If the gun was illegal, it was just as illegal for them to possess it as it was for the OP to possess it. BATF has been known to conduct sting operations like this.

I'm not sure why you posted that to me?? I didn't make any comment regarding the gun shop, or their actions?? :confused:
 

Highline

Regular Member
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Oct 31, 2007
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25
Location
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The owners of the gun store had little choice. If the gun was illegal, it was just as illegal for them to possess it as it was for the OP to possess it. BATF has been known to conduct sting operations like this.

I think the FFL did the right thing. The thing about criminal conduct is that here we have a guy who brings a firearm he just receives to a representative of the government.

What if he called the ATF and asked them to come pick it up because he feared it was unlawful? Would he be subject to a successful prosecution for the time he spent with the gun till the time that it is picked up by the ATF?
 
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Blk97F150

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
1,179
Location
Virginia
It isn't against the BATF in federal court, it would be against the respective US Attorney or US Attorney General. All BATF (and any other federal law enforcement agency) does is collect evidence, make arrests, and forward the case to the US Attorney/AG.



(from http://wlflegalpulse.com/2011/03/25/criminal-intent-what-is-that-and-why-do-we-need-to-prove-it/ )

This guy brought a firearm he just received to a federal agent to seek advice.

If I found an unregistered machinegun in the woods and picked it up and delivered it to a FFL, should I be arrested and thrown in prison? Come on.

No... I'm not saying you 'should'. However I wouldn't be surprised if you were.

Hopefully, for the sake of the OP, you are correct and all is well. I'm not that optimistic about it. (but at the same time I'll admit that I'm not that knowledgeable about this topic either....)
 

Highline

Regular Member
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Messages
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No... I'm not saying you 'should'. However I wouldn't be surprised if you were.

Hopefully, for the sake of the OP, you are correct and all is well. I'm not that optimistic about it. (but at the same time I'll admit that I'm not that knowledgeable about this topic either....)


:)

I think a solution to these types of problems is to enact a federal law (and 50 state laws) which require a judge to advise each jury of their right to nullify.

www.fija.org
 
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