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Question About ATF Seizure of an AR15 that was handed down to me..

RedLegRider

New member
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
8
Location
Riverton, Wyoming, USA
Several years ago a friend of mine purchased a nice Browning .22 semi-auto pistol from a guy he knew. It was not purchased from a gun shop, just a person to person transaction. He took it into a local gun shop a few years later to sell it on consignment. There was a police detective in the gun shop at the time and he happened to look over at the pistol and commented what a nice gun it was. Then he got this weird look on his face and asked my buddy if he could run a check on it. He did and found out the gun had been reported stolen several years back. My friend kind of freaked out and the detective told him he would have to confiscate the firearm. He asked him a few questions about who he bought it from and gave my friend his card and told him he would be in touch. My friend was not put in cuffs and taken away. Later he confirmed to a local non-black boot wearing FBI agent who he bought it from and that was that. No going to court and no jail time. They knew my buddy was not a criminal and they didn't give him a hard time or threaten him in any way.
 

Kirbinator

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
Messages
903
Location
Middle of the map, Alabama
We had this happen not to long ago in Madison, AL... an 80-something year old man brought in a gun to find out what it was worth, and it was discovered to be a 40-something caliber smoothbore revolver just over 12" in length.

The ATF came looked at it, and they took it apart permanently to satisfy law.

The gun store was powerless to do anything but seize the firearm. Their FFL requires it.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Just because some in law enforcement are good and use judgement does not mean all do. Counting on the benevolence of BATFE seems a great risk when weighed against the possible consequences.

How is the possessor going to tell BATFE about his innocent aquisition without also waiving his 5A right to silence, violating half the advice given by Prof. James Duane in his video about talking to police? Even the truthful statements of an innocent witness can be used against him.
 

Blk97F150

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
1,179
Location
Virginia
Just because some in law enforcement are good and use judgement does not mean all do. Counting on the benevolence of BATFE seems a great risk when weighed against the possible consequences.

How is the possessor going to tell BATFE about his innocent aquisition without also waiving his 5A right to silence, violating half the advice given by Prof. James Duane in his video about talking to police? Even the truthful statements of an innocent witness can be used against him.

Not to mention that anything he says..... is going to point the finger towards his father.
 

stuckinchico

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2009
Messages
506
Location
Stevenson, Alabama, United States
Boycott any FFL that contacts ATF start hurting their business if they do. Make a statement for other firearms owners saying that we wil no longer stand for it There are plenty of other FFL that respect gun owners and not ATF
 

GLOCK21GB

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
4,347
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
Please name the shop & location, so we can boycott him & slam his name.

Unless you have obtained the permit from the BATFE for a SBR you are in violation of Federal law...10 years in prison / $ 100,000 fine. They put a law abiding veteran in Prison for 3 years for borrowing his buddy a AR15 for an afternoon at the range, the weapon malfunctioned went into full auto..someone reported it.....the BATFE hates gun owners.

Take this very seriously, get a lawyer NOW.
 
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GLOCK21GB

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
4,347
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
Sounds like this local gun shop isn't any friends of yours. They turned you in instead of first telling YOU of the problem. That's pretty low.

1st, Why did you bring it to a gun shop for a few missing parts?

2nd, Why did you leave it at the gun shop?

3rd, Why didn't you check to make sure it was legal before taking it in public? Are you new to firearms?

I have to say...THIS ^ , Sorry.
 

Yard Sale

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Messages
708
Location
Northern Nevada, ,
What the gun shop should do:

Remove upper from lower. Place cleaning rod down bore until it stops at bolt face, mark cleaning rod at muzzle, measure cleaning rod.

If length >=16", then continue.

If length <16", then say, "Sir, it appears that this upper you brought in with this lower is below the minimum barrel length to assemble into a complete rifle. Don't assemble them. In fact, you shouldn't even possess the two together."
 

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
Or sell him a pistol lower and thus make it all dandy again.

Of course, this sounds like an ideal test case to get this unconstitutional law thrown out. Have you contacted the SAF or NRA about it?
 

Gunslinger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,853
Location
Free, Colorado, USA
Just because some in law enforcement are good and use judgement does not mean all do. Counting on the benevolence of BATFE seems a great risk when weighed against the possible consequences.

How is the possessor going to tell BATFE about his innocent aquisition without also waiving his 5A right to silence, violating half the advice given by Prof. James Duane in his video about talking to police? Even the truthful statements of an innocent witness can be used against him.

Remember the conspirators with von Stauffenburg who tried to kill Hitler? The fairness of their trial would be comparable to anything you can expect from the batfe.
 

Gunslinger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,853
Location
Free, Colorado, USA
What the gun shop should do:

Remove upper from lower. Place cleaning rod down bore until it stops at bolt face, mark cleaning rod at muzzle, measure cleaning rod.

If length >=16", then continue.

If length <16", then say, "Sir, it appears that this upper you brought in with this lower is below the minimum barrel length to assemble into a complete rifle. Don't assemble them. In fact, you shouldn't even possess the two together."

Unless he had a pistol lower. The lower is the controlled item via batfe, not the barrel. You can have as short barrels as you want if a pistol lower is also available. If the gun was apart, the FFL dealer trick ****** him.
 

rob99vmi04

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
291
Location
Fairfax, Virginia, USA
There is some gaps in this I"m curious about.

First off, is this is an AR with a 14.5 inch barrell with a pinned and welded flashider or Break, or is it a 10.5 inch barrel with a 5.5 inch hider that it also pinned and welded? Bushmaster has been making these for years and are completly legal. To an untrained gunstore commando's eye these at first glance appear to be SBR's however, they are not http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=138&t=180890&page=1. If that is the case then I would seriously be pissed off at the shop probably threatening legal action against them if this is the case.

If it is less than 16 inch and isn't pinned or welded then well your kind of at the mercy of the BATFE. However, I would really look into this and see if its a pinned and welded barrel.
 
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Sc0tt

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Messages
315
Location
Asheboro, NC
Are you people kidding?

This guy had no criminal intent. He received a firearm that was passed down to him and he brought it to a gun shop to ask questions.

Your serious? "No criminal intent" is a term lawyers on Tv throw around it doesnt apply here in the real world.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Your serious? "No criminal intent" is a term lawyers on Tv throw around it doesnt apply here in the real world.

"Criminal intent" is quite a real concept and a necessary element of most crimes. We laymen just don't understand it fully.
 

Sc0tt

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Messages
315
Location
Asheboro, NC
"Criminal intent" is quite a real concept and a necessary element of most crimes. We laymen just don't understand it fully.

I understand it, its the difference between manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter.

:p
 

eye95

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Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
I understand it, its the difference between manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter.

:p

The difference is not the absence of intent, just in what the intent was. If there is no intent to do something wrong or reckless, it won't even be involuntary manslaughter, even if someone dies as a result.
 

Gunslinger

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Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,853
Location
Free, Colorado, USA
The difference is not the absence of intent, just in what the intent was. If there is no intent to do something wrong or reckless, it won't even be involuntary manslaughter, even if someone dies as a result.

Not correct. Acting with extreme carelessness,"reckless abandon", with no intent is still actionable--and would be voluntary manslaughter if gross disregard for human life was shown, otherwise probably involuntary. A car accident where you kill someone is one example. Shooting a gun with an unsafe background and taking a life is another. No intent existed to take a life, but it doesn't matter. Scelestus mens is irrelevant. The outcome of the action speaks for itself.
 

eye95

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Jan 6, 2010
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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Not correct. Acting with extreme carelessness,"reckless abandon", with no intent is still actionable--and would be voluntary manslaughter if gross disregard for human life was shown, otherwise probably involuntary. A car accident where you kill someone is one example. Shooting a gun with an unsafe background and taking a life is another. No intent existed to take a life, but it doesn't matter. Scelestus mens is irrelevant. The outcome of the action speaks for itself.

Please reread what I wrote carefully.
 

Gunslinger

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Messages
3,853
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Free, Colorado, USA
Please reread what I wrote carefully.

"If there is no intent to do something wrong or reckless, it won't even be involuntary manslaughter, even if someone dies as a result."


Intent is not an element of an action, necessarily. Accidents happen and people die. As I said, the result stands on its own as a convictable offense if reckless abandon or gross disregard can be proven, absent any intent for the outcome that occured. Your statement is opposite to this. "Evil mind" is not needed when carelessness beyond the standard that a reasonable man would accept exists. Please elaborate.
 

eye95

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Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
"If there is no intent to do something wrong or reckless, it won't even be involuntary manslaughter, even if someone dies as a result."


Intent is not an element of an action, necessarily. Accidents happen and people die. As I said, the result stands on its own as a convictable offense if reckless abandon or gross disregard can be proven, absent any intent for the outcome that occured. Your statement is opposite to this. "Evil mind" is not needed when carelessness beyond the standard that a reasonable man would accept exists. Please elaborate.

OK, let me spell it out clearly.

Intent does not have to be intent to commit the crime. But, even for involuntary manslaughter, intent to do something which, even unintentionally, causes the death of another, must be an element of the crime. A pure accident, over which one exercises no choice, cannot cause a crime.

To give a gross example, a meteor fall from the sky, striking a man, knocking him off an overpass. He lands on another, killing the other, but himself escapes relatively unscathed. That is a pure accident, over which the man exerts zero control. He is not guilty of involuntary manslaughter, as he has no intent.

OTOH, a person gets behind the wheel of a car while under the influence of a legal prescription drug that carries a warning against operating machinery. On the road, a dog jumps out into his way. He swerves to miss the dog, hitting a bystander that he hadn't noticed, killing him. Surely the driver had no intent to kill anyone. Heck, he was trying to save the dog! Such is often referred to as an "accident."

However, he did have intent: intent to recklessly operate the vehicle while under the influence.

Again, criminal intent does not have to be intent to commit a particular crime. Criminal intent could merely be the conscious decision to take an otherwise lawful action that eventually results in the crime.

By way of another example, one shoots at a bank teller during the commission of a robbery and misses. The bullet strikes another person, killing him. The robber is guilty of intentional murder. He did not intend to kill the other person. So, again, we can see that criminal intent is not necessarily the intent to do the crime, but intent to do something that either directly or indirectly (sometimes very indirectly) causes the crime.
 
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