Question About ATF Seizure of an AR15 that was handed down to me..

Gunslinger · Apr 14, 2011

I think I see where you're going. If you mean the person who acted with reckless disregard had 'intent' to do that reckless action, then we agree. As to pure accidental outcomes, we are saying the same thing. There was no misadventure, to put the legal spin on it. My statement: scelestus mens is irrelevant, still applies in either example. Stupidity is not an affirmative defense.

Thoreau · Apr 14, 2011

Citizen said:
Then, ask a moderator to delete this thread so its not hanging out here for everybody in the world to stumble upon, including the government.

Agree with most of your post, but the government already kinda DOES know about this...

jjcharris said:
Within 35 minutes I received a call informing me that the ATF would be seizing it due to an illegal length barrel.

Unless the gun store is simply assuming that the proper paperwork is nonexistent, they obviously contacted the ATF to make the determination.

Dreamer said:
Ignorance of the law is no excuse...

+1

wrightme · Apr 14, 2011

jjcharris said:
Within 35 minutes I received a call informing me that the ATF would be seizing it due to an illegal length barrel. They told me I have no option and that they will take the whole firearm, not just the upper receiver or barrel. Any help on this matter as to how I could possibly retain possession of my firearm would be greatly appreciated.

Thoreau said:
Agree with most of your post, but the government already kinda DOES know about this...

jjcharris said:

Within 35 minutes I received a call informing me that the ATF would be seizing it due to an illegal length barrel. They told me I have no option and that they will take the whole firearm, not just the upper receiver or barrel. Any help on this matter as to how I could possibly retain possession of my firearm would be greatly appreciated.

Click to expand...

Unless the gun store is simply assuming that the proper paperwork is nonexistent, they obviously contacted the ATF to make the determination.

+1

We know the government "knows" something. We do NOT know if the government "knows" the barrel length, or if the government "knows" what the shop said. Given the "within 35 minutes," it is most logical to assume that "the government knows what the shop said," and not specifically "knows the barrel length."

Time will tell.

GLOCK21GB · Apr 16, 2011

Gunslinger said:
Remember the conspirators with von Stauffenburg who tried to kill Hitler? The fairness of their trial would be comparable to anything you can expect from the batfe.

This is so right on..I could not have said it any better !!

SteyrAUG · Apr 16, 2011

Highline said:
Are you people kidding?

This guy had no criminal intent. He received a firearm that was passed down to him and he brought it to a gun shop to ask questions.

I think the ATF is a horrible (and unconstitutional) government agency, but this guy couldn't be convicted of anything. You need to act knowingly or purposely with regards to possession of an unregistered firearm. He became aware of the firearm being prohibited after discussing it with a licensed firearms dealer. No jury would convict him.

Don't kid yourself, I've personally seen it happen.

The OP should assume ATF is building a case at this very moment.

SteyrAUG · Apr 16, 2011

stuckinchico said:
Boycott any FFL that contacts ATF start hurting their business if they do. Make a statement for other firearms owners saying that we wil no longer stand for it There are plenty of other FFL that respect gun owners and not ATF

Sadly most FFLs have to operate under the assumption that ANY illegal firearm brought to them is part of an ATF undercover sting operation. Can you imagine what would happen to a licensed firearms dealer who began trying to cover for a guy with an illegal firearm?

Not only would he quickly be out of business, he'd be all over the news and the anti gun crowd would have all the proof they need that even "licensed dealers" are willing to assist criminals with their illegal weapons.

It is unfortunate whoever took the weapon in didn't catch it and simply say "Get this out of my shop PRONTO" but sadly that didn't happen. And once they are in possession of it, they are very much over an ATF barrel themselves.

DTD2 · Apr 16, 2011

willbird · Apr 20, 2011

There is absolutely NO provision in the law for an FFL to "seize" a firearm. Some FFL's are very poorly informed about what is legal, and how. I have seen them flat out state that Silencers are illegal, or short barreled firearms. Or they could have in their head that rifles need 18" barrels to not be SBR's. or that the 26" overall length must be met with a stock folded, etc.

There are at least three ways the gun could be legal with a short barrel.

1. It is registered as an SBR
2. It is registered as an AOW
3. It is registered as a Machine Gun and or it has a DIAS(drop in auto sear) or Lightning Link installed. In the case of #3 the modifications might not be apparent to a person who was not experienced with them...in the case of the dias/lightning link the FFL could have removed it and pocketed it. Some people also registered the receiver pre 1986 and then used a DIAS.

The original registration would be in the deceased owners name (if he is deceased) and the legal heir can submit a form 5 to have it transferred into his/her name tax free. The estate would have to be reopened and the executor would file the form for the heir.

wrightme · Apr 20, 2011

Sans paperwork indicating that it fits one of those specifics........

Delivery to the FFL without that paperwork isn't wise. Once it is left there, the FFL did what was necessary. You only need review the cases where FFL's have not notified BATFE to see why they notify the BATFE.

willbird · Apr 20, 2011

wrightme said:
Sans paperwork indicating that it fits one of those specifics........

Delivery to the FFL without that paperwork isn't wise. Once it is left there, the FFL did what was necessary. You only need review the cases where FFL's have not notified BATFE to see why they notify the BATFE.

Still, there is no procedure for the FFL to "seize" things. Also we do not yet know if the FFL was CORRECT in their determination or not, as I said many are quite clueless about some things, and steadfastly insist that things are illegal that are not.

The person who ends up with guns in an estate may not even know they are NFA, or contain NFA parts.

Bill

wrightme · Apr 20, 2011

willbird said:
Still, there is no procedure for the FFL to "seize" things. Also we do not yet know if the FFL was CORRECT in their determination or not, as I said many are quite clueless about some things, and steadfastly insist that things are illegal that are not.

The person who ends up with guns in an estate may not even know they are NFA, or contain NFA parts.

Bill

The FFL did not seize the firearm. They did not make the determination according to the OP, the BATFE did.

They may have presented false information as to barrel length verbally to the BATFE, but that remains to be seen.

willbird · Apr 20, 2011

The whole story sounds weird, he leaves it, 35 minutes later they have contacted ATF and have a determination about the gun already ?

Bill

SteyrAUG · Apr 21, 2011

willbird said:
The whole story sounds weird, he leaves it, 35 minutes later they have contacted ATF and have a determination about the gun already ?

Bill

Based upon a few past experiences I have personal knowledge of, sounds about right.

You'd be amazed how fast these things can happen.

KBCraig · Apr 22, 2011

SteyrAUG said:
willbird said:

The whole story sounds weird, he leaves it, 35 minutes later they have contacted ATF and have a determination about the gun already ?

Bill

Click to expand...

Based upon a few past experiences I have personal knowledge of, sounds about right.

You'd be amazed how fast these things can happen.

We don't know where the gun shop is located. From mid-Racine to downtown Milwaukee (ATF field office) is easily 45 minutes to an hour, depending on traffic.

We don't know how long the actual "legal portion" of the barrel is. If it was 14.5" plus a tack-welded or hard-soldered flash suppressor, that makes it a legal 16" (or any other barrel-plus-permanent-extension that equals 16"+). We don't know how it was measured. We don't know if the dealer made assumptions based on a poor understanding of the law (dealers and cops are neck-and-neck for bad interpretations of the law).

We don't know anything, other than that this guy took a rifle to a dealer and then got a call telling him it was going to be seized by ATF. He hasn't added more information, and I can't blame him, since the first advice was to shut up and get a lawyer (good advice, considering this is potentially a federal felony).

Maybe we'll learn the outcome, maybe we won't. Maybe this guy just got jacked out of a nice upper by an unscrupulous dealer. Maybe he just caught a lucky break and avoided a felony prosecution. We won't know unless he tells us, or someone can find the details of the case and report back.

SteyrAUG · Apr 22, 2011

KBCraig said:
We don't know anything, other than that this guy took a rifle to a dealer and then got a call telling him it was going to be seized by ATF.

You are of course correct. I'm just offering my experience in similar matters.

KBCraig said:
He hasn't added more information, and I can't blame him, since the first advice was to shut up and get a lawyer (good advice, considering this is potentially a federal felony).

And certainly no argument with any of that.

willbird · Apr 22, 2011

SteyrAUG said:
Based upon a few past experiences I have personal knowledge of, sounds about right.

You'd be amazed how fast these things can happen.

I have tried calling the ATF field office in Toledo, OH to ask questions.....35 minutes would be about right for your hold time on the phone. Let alone a live agent going to a gun store and looking at a gun ?

I saw a guy carrying a Thompson around a Lima, OH gun show once that had a sub 16" barrel, people kept asking him if it was NFA, he was an older guy and he had no idea what they were talking about. They have a Deputy Sheriff to work security...he finally went over to the guy and told him "get that thing OUT of here, put it in your car"....turns out the guys son had asked him to sell it for him. I did not look at it real close because I had no desire to be involved in any way. I have seen older rifles like Stevens Favorites cut down into pistols for sale on peoples tables at gun shows. A buddy of mine bought one actually....on his way out people at other tables were screwing with him "you know that is a cut down rifle don't you ? That is illegal"...but he really did not care. Amazes me really. I go to great lengths to avoid stuff like that.

There IS a provision in the law that says if you turn in something illegal (sbr, mg, sbs, etc.) that you will not be prosecuted for having it.

Bill

SteyrAUG · Apr 22, 2011

willbird said:
I have tried calling the ATF field office in Toledo, OH to ask questions.....35 minutes would be about right for your hold time on the phone. Let alone a live agent going to a gun store and looking at a gun ?

I saw a guy carrying a Thompson around a Lima, OH gun show once that had a sub 16" barrel, people kept asking him if it was NFA, he was an older guy and he had no idea what they were talking about. They have a Deputy Sheriff to work security...he finally went over to the guy and told him "get that thing OUT of here, put it in your car"....turns out the guys son had asked him to sell it for him. I did not look at it real close because I had no desire to be involved in any way. I have seen older rifles like Stevens Favorites cut down into pistols for sale on peoples tables at gun shows. A buddy of mine bought one actually....on his way out people at other tables were screwing with him "you know that is a cut down rifle don't you ? That is illegal"...but he really did not care. Amazes me really. I go to great lengths to avoid stuff like that.

There IS a provision in the law that says if you turn in something illegal (sbr, mg, sbs, etc.) that you will not be prosecuted for having it.

Bill

Every office is of course different and their response time and how aggressively they pursue cases varies accordingly.

And I believe you are correct about the provision you mentioned and I personally do not believe the OP did anything willfully, but I have seen the ATF do a lot of things I didn't think they would.

Please understand my comments aren't for the purpose of causing controversy on this forum, but they are here as a warning of how aggressive ATF is capable of being and as a reminder to assume the worst when dealing with them so that you may protect yourself accordingly.

I hate to see good people behind the 8 ball. I've seen it too many times already.

Question About ATF Seizure of an AR15 that was handed down to me..

Gunslinger

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Thoreau

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wrightme

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GLOCK21GB

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SteyrAUG

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DTD2

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