Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 34

Thread: Under the influence?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Sharpender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    University Place, Washington, USA
    Posts
    75

    Under the influence?

    I'm wondering what everyone does about oc/cc ing while under the influence of a controlled substance. I don't drink, but I am taking Percocet as well as a couple of muscle relaxers and other things. I'll be having a spinal fusion sometime in the next 30 days, after recovery I'll be done with the drugs. What I'm doing now is not carrying at all if I've taken any of my medication, but I hate doing it. I just feel naked and vulnerable without it. Granted, I've only been out of the house 7 times since October (I work from home), but I hate being unarmed. I don't carry while doped up because the drugs do alter my judgement and I'd hate to make a mistake if I had to make a decision to shoot. I'm also wondering if in a circumstance where I had to shoot would I be drug tested by law enforcement. As I'm writing this I'm now wondering if the same holds true for a self-defense shooting in my own home....that concerns me now that I'm thinking about it. Is a drug test of the shooter in a self-defense situation drug tested as part of every investigation? If so, they would find a smorgasbord of legal and prescribed narcotics.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Gravel Switch, KY
    Posts
    544
    never mind, I misread the question and I am unfamiliar with Washington law.
    Last edited by flb_78; 04-09-2011 at 07:30 PM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North of Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    5,953
    If your situation would warrant the use of deadly force while not under the influence of any substance, it would still be legal if you are taking a medication. For that matter, it would even be legal if you were under the influence of Alcohol.

    The problem is deciding whether you are justified before you act with an "impaired mind". Judgement will be slowed which is a double edged sword. It can cause one to act when they shouldn't and to not act when they should.

    Best bet is to avoid any situation that would require that you have to make such a decision while "medicated".
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Richland, Washington, USA
    Posts
    387
    If for any reason law enforcement asks for a drug test, my response would be not until they have a warrant for it.

  5. #5
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Nortonville, KY, USA
    Posts
    4,291
    BREATH/BLOOD TESTING
    RCW 46.61.506 Methods/Procedures/Permit required/Information Concerning Tests RCW 46.04.015 "Alcohol Concentration" defined WAC 448-14 Blood WACS WAC 448-15 PBT WACS

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Tacoma, WA, ,
    Posts
    886
    The old familiar "Do not operate machinery or drive until you become familiar with the effects of this drug." comes to mind. If it makes you completely loopey, then I would lock the guns up until you had your head out of the clouds, but if it has only the intended pain-relieving effects, then you should be just fine.

  7. #7
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Okanogan Highland
    Posts
    2,332
    My rule would be is your driving impared enough by the perc. you should not be on the road? Be honest with yourself... If you should not be driving a car, you probably should not be out and about at all...alcohol or any drug, legal or illegal. Only you know how you feel.

    One caution...the test they use for presence of opiates will test positive after a couple of poppy seed muffuns, as well as your Perc. If you ever are on an opiate based drug, you have make sure you receive a proper analytical test.

    If you are defending yourself from a physical assault your use of perc. shouldn't be an issue. If deadly force is warrented, it's warrented, if not, it is not..your condition does not cange the rules of engagement.
    Last edited by hermannr; 04-10-2011 at 01:40 AM.

  8. #8
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Nortonville, KY, USA
    Posts
    4,291
    RCW 9.41.098

    Forfeiture of firearms — Disposition — Confiscation.


    (1) The superior courts and the courts of limited jurisdiction of the state may order forfeiture of a firearm which is proven to be:

    (a) Found concealed on a person not authorized by RCW 9.41.060 or 9.41.070 to carry a concealed pistol: PROVIDED, That it is an absolute defense to forfeiture if the person possessed a valid Washington concealed pistol license within the preceding two years and has not become ineligible for a concealed pistol license in the interim. Before the firearm may be returned, the person must pay the past due renewal fee and the current renewal fee;

    (b) Commercially sold to any person without an application as required by RCW 9.41.090;

    (c) In the possession of a person prohibited from possessing the firearm under RCW 9.41.040 or 9.41.045;

    (d) In the possession or under the control of a person at the time the person committed or was arrested for committing a felony or committing a nonfelony crime in which a firearm was used or displayed;

    (e) In the possession of a person who is in any place in which a concealed pistol license is required, and who is under the influence of any drug or under the influence of intoxicating liquor, as defined in chapter 46.61 RCW;

    (f) In the possession of a person free on bail or personal recognizance pending trial, appeal, or sentencing for a felony or for a nonfelony crime in which a firearm was used or displayed, except that violations of Title 77 RCW shall not result in forfeiture under this section;

    (g) In the possession of a person found to have been mentally incompetent while in possession of a firearm when apprehended or who is thereafter committed pursuant to chapter 10.77 or 71.05 RCW;

    (h) Used or displayed by a person in the violation of a proper written order of a court of general jurisdiction; or

    (i) Used in the commission of a felony or of a nonfelony crime in which a firearm was used or displayed.

    (2) Upon order of forfeiture, the court in its discretion may order destruction of any forfeited firearm. A court may temporarily retain forfeited firearms needed for evidence.

    (a) Except as provided in (b), (c), and (d) of this subsection, firearms that are: (i) Judicially forfeited and no longer needed for evidence; or (ii) forfeited due to a failure to make a claim under RCW 63.32.010 or 63.40.010; may be disposed of in any manner determined by the local legislative authority. Any proceeds of an auction or trade may be retained by the legislative authority. This subsection (2)(a) applies only to firearms that come into the possession of the law enforcement agency after June 30, 1993.

    By midnight, June 30, 1993, every law enforcement agency shall prepare an inventory, under oath, of every firearm that has been judicially forfeited, has been seized and may be subject to judicial forfeiture, or that has been, or may be, forfeited due to a failure to make a claim under RCW 63.32.010 or 63.40.010.

    (b) Except as provided in (c) of this subsection, of the inventoried firearms a law enforcement agency shall destroy illegal firearms, may retain a maximum of ten percent of legal forfeited firearms for agency use, and shall either:

    (i) Comply with the provisions for the auction of firearms in RCW 9.41.098 that were in effect immediately preceding May 7, 1993; or

    (ii) Trade, auction, or arrange for the auction of, rifles and shotguns. In addition, the law enforcement agency shall either trade, auction, or arrange for the auction of, short firearms, or shall pay a fee of twenty-five dollars to the state treasurer for every short firearm neither auctioned nor traded, to a maximum of fifty thousand dollars. The fees shall be accompanied by an inventory, under oath, of every short firearm listed in the inventory required by (a) of this subsection, that has been neither traded nor auctioned. The state treasurer shall credit the fees to the firearms range account established in RCW 79A.25.210. All trades or auctions of firearms under this subsection shall be to licensed dealers. Proceeds of any auction less costs, including actual costs of storage and sale, shall be forwarded to the firearms range account established in RCW 79A.25.210.

    (c) Antique firearms and firearms recognized as curios, relics, and firearms of particular historical significance by the United States treasury department *bureau of alcohol, tobacco, and firearms are exempt from destruction and shall be disposed of by auction or trade to licensed dealers.

    (d) Firearms in the possession of the Washington state patrol on or after May 7, 1993, that are judicially forfeited and no longer needed for evidence, or forfeited due to a failure to make a claim under RCW 63.35.020, must be disposed of as follows: (i) Firearms illegal for any person to possess must be destroyed; (ii) the Washington state patrol may retain a maximum of ten percent of legal firearms for agency use; and (iii) all other legal firearms must be auctioned or traded to licensed dealers. The Washington state patrol may retain any proceeds of an auction or trade.

    (3) The court shall order the firearm returned to the owner upon a showing that there is no probable cause to believe a violation of subsection (1) of this section existed or the firearm was stolen from the owner or the owner neither had knowledge of nor consented to the act or omission involving the firearm which resulted in its forfeiture.

    (4) A law enforcement officer of the state or of any county or municipality may confiscate a firearm found to be in the possession of a person under circumstances specified in subsection (1) of this section. After confiscation, the firearm shall not be surrendered except: (a) To the prosecuting attorney for use in subsequent legal proceedings; (b) for disposition according to an order of a court having jurisdiction as provided in subsection (1) of this section; or (c) to the owner if the proceedings are dismissed or as directed in subsection (3) of this section.
    Last edited by Bill Starks; 04-10-2011 at 01:53 AM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Okanogan Highland
    Posts
    2,332
    M1gunr: that is basicly saying what I did...if you are too drunk/drugged to drive on the public road...leave it at home, better yet, stay home.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Sparky508's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Graham, , USA
    Posts
    343
    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Best bet is to avoid any situation that would require that you have to make such a decision while "medicated".
    That's a beautiful thought and all, but for the most part, we don't get to make the decision as to the when's and where's we might need to defend ourselves.

    Being at home, you still have access, be it hampered a bit pending you awareness factor. Does your significant other carry, or do you have a buddy, that will, "back you up", when you leave the house?

    I found myself in this situation also, a few years back after knee surgery. I was pretty doped up and therefore left defenseless. Pretty crappy situation.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Lammo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    581
    Quote Originally Posted by M1Gunr View Post
    RCW 9.41.098

    Forfeiture of firearms Disposition Confiscation.


    (1) The superior courts and the courts of limited jurisdiction of the state may order forfeiture of a firearm which is proven to be:

    SNIP

    (e) In the possession of a person who is in any place in which a concealed pistol license is required, and who is under the influence of any drug or under the influence of intoxicating liquor, as defined in chapter 46.61 RCW;

    SNIP
    True, but this probably would not come into play unless there were an underlying criminal case or civil infraction notice issued. We don't generally run around filing forfeiture cases without an arrest, at least not in Spokane County.
    IAALBIAAFTDPASNIPHCBCALA
    Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out. (John Corapi, The Black Sheep Dog)
    Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. (Groucho Marx)

  12. #12
    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Roy, WA
    Posts
    1,329
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayd1981 View Post
    If for any reason law enforcement asks for a drug test, my response would be not until they have a warrant for it.
    +1
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

  13. #13
    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Central South Sound
    Posts
    1,025

    new question

    The cite referred to is RCW 46.61...

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.61

    This appears to principally be for illegal things involved with and regarding violations for traffic or driving or use of legal things (liquor) to an illegal limit that is determined...and then when I started to chase around the code references within 46.61, I didn't see any comment regarding use/operating under the influence of legally obtained prescription drugs...or blood levels (for a testing limit) that would be determined to be a threshold for ability to function or not as they have for alcohol and subsequent violation of the law.

    As an aside, I get it, regarding the operating warnings on the lable and its relevance to reaction time in potential defense situations, and it generally being a bad idea to carry and be taking (a lot of) pain medication, but help me out a little more here...there are lots of legal prescription drugs that may or may not be narcotic in effect, but also tend to make you a bit fuzzy for the first three hours in the morning until you get used to them....like:

    Zolpidem, that also carries the same warning on the lable about operating or driving....which I take occasionally instead of writing threads at 3:30 AM. Can it affect me? sure, does it affect my ability to defend the house? maybe...

    so, what else is out there that people take while carrying, driving, or in the night stand?....and if you have a legal prescription, and are taking it according to the directions, what law exactly, has been broken?
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Long gone
    Posts
    2,575

    See 1(b), 2 and 4

    Suspicion of DUI is determined by the officer not the blood alcohol content. Measuring blood alcohol content is just more evidence that you were impared. You can be and some people are convicted of DUI with a .00 blood alcohol. Anyone that drinks and drives should talk to a lawyer before they drink and drive and then rethink drinking and driving.

    RCW 46.61.502
    Driving under the influence.

    (1) A person is guilty of driving while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or any drug if the person drives a vehicle within this state:

    (a) And the person has, within two hours after driving, an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or higher as shown by analysis of the person's breath or blood made under RCW 46.61.506; or

    (b) While the person is under the influence of or affected by intoxicating liquor or any drug; or

    (c) While the person is under the combined influence of or affected by intoxicating liquor and any drug.

    (2) The fact that a person charged with a violation of this section is or has been entitled to use a drug under the laws of this state shall not constitute a defense against a charge of violating this section.


    (4) Analyses of blood or breath samples obtained more than two hours after the alleged driving may be used as evidence that within two hours of the alleged driving, a person had an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or more in violation of subsection (1)(a) of this section, and in any case in which the analysis shows an alcohol concentration above 0.00 may be used as evidence that a person was under the influence of or affected by intoxicating liquor or any drug in violation of subsection (1)(b) or (c) of this section.

  15. #15
    Regular Member boosteddreams's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Monroe, WA
    Posts
    148
    This is something that I've also wondered about. I have medical conditions that sometimes have me taking codeine. I'm a lightweight and get very loopy, even at half the prescribed dosage, and can't get behind the wheel for at least eight hours after taking it. At this point I usually end up dealing with the pain as often as I can rather than putting myself in that situation (which is far from an ideal solution).

  16. #16
    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Central South Sound
    Posts
    1,025
    Quote Originally Posted by Orphan View Post
    Suspicion of DUI is determined by the officer not the blood alcohol content. Measuring blood alcohol content is just more evidence that you were impared. You can be and some people are convicted of DUI with a .00 blood alcohol. Anyone that drinks and drives should talk to a lawyer before they drink and drive and then rethink drinking and driving.

    RCW 46.61.502
    Driving under the influence.

    (1) A person is guilty of driving while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or any drug if the person drives a vehicle within this state:

    (a) And the person has, within two hours after driving, an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or higher as shown by analysis of the person's breath or blood made under RCW 46.61.506; or

    (b) While the person is under the influence of or affected by intoxicating liquor or any drug; or

    (c) While the person is under the combined influence of or affected by intoxicating liquor and any drug.

    (2) The fact that a person charged with a violation of this section is or has been entitled to use a drug under the laws of this state shall not constitute a defense against a charge of violating this section.


    (4) Analyses of blood or breath samples obtained more than two hours after the alleged driving may be used as evidence that within two hours of the alleged driving, a person had an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or more in violation of subsection (1)(a) of this section, and in any case in which the analysis shows an alcohol concentration above 0.00 may be used as evidence that a person was under the influence of or affected by intoxicating liquor or any drug in violation of subsection (1)(b) or (c) of this section.
    I know....my question was in regard to post number 1 and some of the follow on comments.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Long gone
    Posts
    2,575
    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    I know....my question was in regard to post number 1 and some of the follow on comments.
    I believe the courts will look at OC or CC under the influance in a similar manner was my point.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Winlock, , USA
    Posts
    501
    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post

    One caution...the test they use for presence of opiates will test positive after a couple of poppy seed muffuns, as well as your Perc. If you ever are on an opiate based drug, you have make sure you receive a proper analytical test.
    As a guy who used to do drug testing for a living, yes, eating poppy seed muffins will POSSIBLY give a positive result for opiates. Note I didn't say "false" positive. When eating poppy seeds, you are actually ingesting opiates, but at a very low level. There was even a paper I read that listed the amount of opiates in poppy seeds by region - if'n I remember right (and not saying I do) Australian seeds were the worst for that.

    Oddly enough, with opiates, it is very difficult to tell which opiate a person used without a great deal of luck in the timing of the sample collection. The metabolism of the opiates is such that if you miss a very small window of opportunity, you can only say "opiate" and no "codeine" or "heroin" etc... One way they can tell if it is truly percocet or not is to also test for tylenol.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Philipsburg, Montana
    Posts
    3,137
    who is under the influence of any drug

    This seems a bit vague. ANY drug?? I take aspirin everyday (not for the heart attack, just to keep my Sweet Baboo of my back). An over zealous prosecuter (not that we have any in Washington state) could use the letter of the law and not it's intent.

  20. #20
    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Central South Sound
    Posts
    1,025
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    who is under the influence of any drug

    This seems a bit vague. ANY drug?? I take aspirin everyday (not for the heart attack, just to keep my Sweet Baboo of my back). An over zealous prosecuter (not that we have any in Washington state) could use the letter of the law and not it's intent.
    I am arguing a bit with the context and the cite above....and yours, here...it is accurate in context as it relates to "Driving under the influence"...

    I would like to see the cite for "carrying under the influence" that makes it against the law....and the subsequent debate on defending yourself while "under the influence"....and think it would not have any merit or standing as it isn't addressed specifically in the law.

    Zealously or not....a plain reading.
    Last edited by jt59; 04-11-2011 at 03:10 PM.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Long gone
    Posts
    2,575
    NavyLT

    Two different things, in your second case they would simply be transporting a firearm not CC or OC.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Sparky508's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Graham, , USA
    Posts
    343
    Quote Originally Posted by Orphan View Post
    NavyLT

    Two different things, in your second case they would simply be transporting a firearm not CC or OC.
    Two different things indeed. According to the law though, it says in a place when and where a CPL is required. In the second situation, since a CPL is not required, there would be no justification under this portion of the law for confiscation. Unless I suspect it was only for temporarily to secure it.

    (e) In the possession of a person who is in any place in which a concealed pistol license is required, and who is under the influence of any drug or under the influence of intoxicating liquor, as defined in chapter 46.61 RCW;


  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Long gone
    Posts
    2,575
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky508 View Post
    Two different things indeed. According to the law though, it says in a place when and where a CPL is required. In the second situation, since a CPL is not required, there would be no justification under this portion of the law for confiscation. Unless I suspect it was only for temporarily to secure it.

    (e) In the possession of a person who is in any place in which a concealed pistol license is required, and who is under the influence of any drug or under the influence of intoxicating liquor, as defined in chapter 46.61 RCW;

    100% agree

  24. #24
    Regular Member Sparky508's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Graham, , USA
    Posts
    343
    Quote Originally Posted by Orphan View Post
    100% agree
    So.......
    I guess I misunderstood your statment.
    (Maybe I m just feeling combative)

    Seems to me, if one was in a place, throwing all of the OC and other rules out the door, meaning your home or place of bussiness etc. (Think of the rules as understood by the majority of people who aren't versed.............)

    While not an intelligent thing to do by any means, one could be under the influence of whatever floated his boat, in his own house and wouldn't be subject to confiscation. Although as I type and think , I suspect there would be reckless endagerment type things that could possibly come into play.

  25. #25
    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Central South Sound
    Posts
    1,025
    .......and it appears in this reading, that you would only lose your gun, not your CPL..
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •