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Thread: City of Puyallup in Violation

  1. #1
    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    City of Puyallup in Violation

    It would appear that Puyallup is in violation of state code and are aware of it. Is someone here working this?

    http://www.cityofpuyallup.org/files/...4660dfc0f7.pdf

    City of Puyallup
    Parks and Recreation Board Meeting Minutes
    Puyallup Activity Center
    Monday, December 14, 2009

    FIREARMS IN CITY PARKS

    Steve Kirkelie, Puyallup Senior Assistant Attorney, attended the meeting to update the board on City parks code 9.20 regarding firearms in City Parks. This city code is in violation of current state law and was recently challenged by an individual at Bradley Lark Park.

    Initially, the city’s legal department was recommending that the part of the city code regarding firearms in city parks be deleted. According to Mr. Kirkelie, there is now pending legislation to regulate and clarify the state law regarding firearms in public forums. Consequently, Mr. Kirkelie is recommending no changes in the city code at this time. This issue will be tabled until legislation is resolved.

    ........and the current rental agreement

    http://www.cityofpuyallup.org/files/...4660dfc0f7.pdf

    (see line 16)

    I am not aware of any "pending" legislation, and we're tracking all of it in this legislative session. He appears to be purposefully misinforming the parks board.... what the heck does that mean anyway, " I recommend that we'll continue to break the law, and hope for a change in our favor at some point in the future?) ..and then in this most recent meeting they discussed and acknowledged:

    City of Puyallup
    Parks and Recreation Board Meeting Minutes
    Puyallup Activity Center
    Monday, April 12, 2010
    5:00 p.m.

    Bradley Lake Park Volunteer Security – The police department is cautious about using neighborhood patrols because of the liability. There has not been major vandalism at Bradley Lake Park recently.

    Guns in City Parks – Seattle lost their appeal banning guns in city parks.

    .........Seems like we should plan on attending the next parks meeting....anyone up?

    Board contacts:
    Parks, Recreation and Senior Advisory Board

    Denise Johnson, Chair
    George Duncan, Vice-Chair
    Dr. A Singh Dhillon
    Gerean Baginski
    Mattie Lou Bell
    William Hilton
    Carol Slead
    Last edited by jt59; 04-11-2011 at 12:54 AM.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member DevinWKuska's Avatar
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    yeah.... btw Goose has been talking to the city directly. I sent a few e-mails to some associates I know who are either in the city building or senators residing in the city of Puyallup.
    "So there I was between a rock and a hard place, when it hit me... What am I doing on this side of the rock?"

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    I would think if they are in direct violation of a state pre-empted law, that they are way past the right time to deal with it.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Two Questions

    First: The attorney alluded to "pending legislation to regulate and clarify the state law regarding firearms in public forums". While there is no apparent legislation pending, is it possible that City Attorneys like this person are aware of something waiting in the wings? Legislation that is being drafted to allow cities add parks and public buildings to the list of prohibited places, and will be introduced at a later session of the Legislature? Or are they just full of crap and misleading as was suggested?

    Second: This line was in bold but was standing alone without comment. "Guns in City Parks – Seattle lost their appeal banning guns in city parks." Did Seattle loose the appeal but it wasn't announced in the media? What is the current status of Seattle's appeal to the ruling on their ordinance/rule banning firearms from parks, etc?
    Last edited by amlevin; 04-11-2011 at 10:27 AM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    First: The attorney alluded to "pending legislation to regulate and clarify the state law regarding firearms in public forums". While there is no apparent legislation pending, is it possible that City Attorneys like this person are aware of something waiting in the wings? Legislation that is being drafted to allow cities add parks and public buildings to the list of prohibited places, and will be introduced at a later session of the Legislature? Or are they just full of crap and misleading as was suggested?

    Second: This line was in bold but was standing alone without comment. "Guns in City Parks – Seattle lost their appeal banning guns in city parks." Did Seattle loose the appeal but it wasn't announced in the media? What is the current status of Seattle's appeal to the ruling on their ordinance/rule banning firearms from parks, etc?
    First question: Not likely, this was a reference in the minutes made by the attn'y and keeping in mind that this meeting was Dec.2009, there may have been something back then. There is certainly nothing that is current or in the wings that I am aware of. Our current 2011 legislative session is over for any and all bills not clearing the house of origin on the Senate or House floor (voted on) by tomorrow at 5pm. After that, only bills concerning the budget are considered until the end of the session.

    Second question: The line bolded was mine from the minutes that I extracted from the link of the April 2011 meeting for clarity (my apologies, as it subtracted not added from that). Although a minor mention of the reference to the Dec 2009 seems to be the connection in both doc's, there is nothing more, alluded to in the minutes. Seattle did lose the state supreme court argument regarding their ability to put limits on guns in parks (cite needed), and much has been made and discussed on this forum about it.

    Gooses comments on his current and ongoing communication with CoP are moving forward it appears, and the parks commission is a click or two below the city council, where the decision may ultimately be decided. We can support him in any way appropriately, to letter writing or standing with him at the next meeting if he would like.

    I came across this just looking stuff up, and just wanted to get it up in front....like the firestation property policy recently recinded.

    The answers that Goose received like "it is not the right time" from these folks in these city positions is just plainly unacceptable.

    Goose! Do you have the contact information for these committee members to contact....with this comment noted in the most recent minutes, it seems timely to put a push on.
    Last edited by jt59; 04-11-2011 at 01:44 PM.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    I would think if they are in direct violation of a state pre-empted law, that they are way past the right time to deal with it

    If I tried to live my life that way I would be arrested. What is it that keeps people like this OUT of jail??

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Motion to Amend State Law

    Recall we just recently got Snohomish County to fix thier parks code, and an item the LIBS on the board are fighting back with is this: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...n-Control-Laws

    I suspect they’re thinking the same type of motion to amend the law Snohomish is threatening; do away with preemption or modify. But at least the far left in Snohomish had the sense to realize they had to first uphold state law. I hope those anti's in Puyallup remain ignorant, and the state only recognizes their failure to uphold state law, and the rights of its citizens, and slaps their pee-pee for asking such stupidity while in defiance.
    Last edited by jbone; 04-11-2011 at 02:10 PM.

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Not likely IMHO

    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    Recall we just recently got Snohomish County to fix thier parks code, and an item the LIBS on the board are fighting back with is this: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...n-Control-Laws

    I suspect they’re thinking the same type of motion to amend the law Snohomish is threatening; do away with preemption or modify. But at least the far left in Snohomish had the sense to realize they had to first uphold state law. I hope those anti's in Puyallup remain ignorant, and the state only recognizes their failure to uphold state law, and the rights of its citizens, and slaps their pee-pee for asking such stupidity while in defiance.
    This (SC) resolution got no traction at all as far as I can tell in this legislative session.

    Note that they state "while upholding the rights" and then went on to say kids and families should be able to play without being threatened (already addressed in 9.41.270).....and then

    ...the last line in the resolution was to simply send a copy of the resolution (Snohomish) to all the state legislators....outside of this, SC did not appear to allocate any additional resources or time to the issue or they seriously do not understand the state legislative process....

    I cannot find the voted, signed resolution in the Feb, Mar, April minutes on the website....maybe it's yet to come.

    A FOIA request to the County Attn'y or council, should turn up a cc of what exactly they sent, to whom, additional correspondence and what legislation/amendments they requested......(much too late for any action),

    Further, by resolution, it is part of the 2011 legislative intent of the Council, so in order for it to be renewed, it will have to be re-introduced in 2012....

    ....since it appears that they are asking for some specific amendments to the state law on behalf of their constituents, it seems likely that they would not do that without public comment, both on the front end of sending the resolution (to give it any weight to the legislators) and if they did, being involved with the code writers for the changes they are seeking, then bringing it forward for additional public comment and support as part of the process they must follow for local rule making.

    After that, it seems to me that they would also have to include communication with whoever they are working on in a report, and since they did not appoint a "committee" to review or pursue it, unless they are going to address this at the coucil level in public, this feels more like political cover than an effort to affect real change.

    I am fairly certain that the City of Puyallup is not actively pursuing anything in this legislative cycle and this issue, locally is still at the Parks Committee level.

    What was the election cycle again for the SC Council?
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    What was the election cycle again for the SC Council?
    Don't recall seeing anyone on the last ballot, I think the only new addition is Wright, who replaced Cooper when he took a Mayor Job in Edmonds?

    Edit to Add: I believe it was Cooper who introduced the motion, with him gone it may have just fizzled out?
    Last edited by jbone; 04-11-2011 at 05:11 PM.

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    Angry

    And to think a few years ago i got jacked up by PPD and we had a OC meet right in the city park so when there is just 1 of us its a pack of dogs on a 3 legged cat but when there are 20 of us they dont want any contact...... just goes to shows you the mindset of PPD

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Any update on this Goose?

    Just a bump for an update. I came across the City of Puyallup Council meeting for March (I think) on TV last night but came into it late, and watched for a while on a conversation that sounded like it was our issue, but they just kept referring to it as "the Issue"...and never named it for clarification and ultimately the City Lawyer, succeeded to the council to form a commission to study the "issue" and report back to the council....next council meeting appears to me tomorrow April 19th.


    Any update on the status?...I can't find anything on the Parks agenda for anything further....

    jt
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    OT Question

    Goose-

    I noticed you got rid of your "inverted goose" avatar. What's up? Something about Facebook that p!$$ed you off?

    Just wondering.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member Just Us's Avatar
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    I would like to see a Picnic/BBQ happen in May or June. I'm sure 30 -40 families would show. Hamburgers/Hot Dogs, drinks, salads plus what ever OCers want to bring. A few of us can get together and get the ball rolling, not to mention are media specialist. If LEO shows offer them some food. The few people at city hall or where ever aren't listening maybe this way the might. It's a idea!

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    Regular Member DevinWKuska's Avatar
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    I am up for the BBQ

    Unfortunately I am getting no more then Goose. When we(Goose mostly) first took on this issue I talked to some associates of mine and more or less got same response he did. I was told to let some time pass before making it an issue, and the council would be more likely to recieve it at least half@$$ed if it was done after budget. Not to mention the whole AZ thing.... I will get you guys contact INFO on CoP council contacts. I can stroll down their tomorrow and try to get phone #'s and e-mails. I also know a senator(might be a congressmen) who usually can be found not too far away. Perpaps a little nudge will get the CoP going?
    Last edited by DevinWKuska; 04-18-2011 at 11:47 PM.
    "So there I was between a rock and a hard place, when it hit me... What am I doing on this side of the rock?"

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    Regular Member DevinWKuska's Avatar
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    Here is the info...

    Mayor Kathy Turner
    kturner@ci.puyallup.wa.us <kturner@ci.puyallup.wa.us>
    (253) 848-2507

    "As your mayor I currently hold coffee meetings the first Thursday of every month from 10-11 and I am in my office every Thursday from 10-4 for meetings without appointments and of course I am available for appointments throughout the week."(sorry just seemed like if anyone was interested... you get free coffee and a chance to make a change.)

    Councilmember John Knutsen
    mailto:jknutsen@ci.puyallup.wa.us
    (253) 845-2159

    Councilmember Nicole Martineau
    mailto:nmartineau@ci.puyallup.wa.us
    (253) 304-6796

    Deputy Mayor Tami Brouillet
    mailto:tbrouillet@ci.puyallup.wa.us
    (253) 841-2191

    Councilmember Rick Hansen
    mailto:rhansen@ci.puyallup.wa.us
    (253) 848-5971

    Councilmember Kent Boyle
    mailto:kboyle@ci.puyallup.wa.us
    253-380-5658

    Councilmember Don Malloy
    mailto:dmalloy@ci.puyallup.wa.us
    (253) 841-3433.

    So there ya go ladies and gentlemen... Light em up, and let me know what you get in response. Maybe if enough people squak they will start to listen.
    Last edited by DevinWKuska; 04-19-2011 at 12:03 AM.
    "So there I was between a rock and a hard place, when it hit me... What am I doing on this side of the rock?"

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    Regular Member Just Us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevinWKuska View Post
    Here is the info...

    Mayor Kathy Turner
    kturner@ci.puyallup.wa.us <kturner@ci.puyallup.wa.us>
    (253) 848-2507

    "As your mayor I currently hold coffee meetings the first Thursday of every month from 10-11 and I am in my office every Thursday from 10-4 for meetings without appointments and of course I am available for appointments throughout the week."(sorry just seemed like if anyone was interested... you get free coffee and a chance to make a change.)

    Councilmember John Knutsen
    mailto:jknutsen@ci.puyallup.wa.us



    (253) 845-2159

    Councilmember Nicole Martineau
    mailto:nmartineau@ci.puyallup.wa.us
    (253) 304-6796

    Deputy Mayor Tami Brouillet
    mailto:tbrouillet@ci.puyallup.wa.us
    (253) 841-2191

    Councilmember Rick Hansen
    mailto:rhansen@ci.puyallup.wa.us
    (253) 848-5971

    Councilmember Kent Boyle
    mailto:kboyle@ci.puyallup.wa.us
    253-380-5658

    Councilmember Don Malloy
    mailto:dmalloy@ci.puyallup.wa.us
    (253) 841-3433.

    So there ya go ladies and gentlemen... Light em up, and let me know what you get in response. Maybe if enough people squak they will start to listen.

    I live minutes from bradly lake. I'll definitely be writing a letter to them.

    Thanks.

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    Regular Member Sparky508's Avatar
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    Here is a picture of the sign down off of Pioneer I took last year or so. I worked them a little but, as things got busy it went by the way side. I'll start it back up again and see where we don’t get with it.
    I did run into an officer down there on that same day though, and while we talked about it nothing derogatory came of it. I also need to revisit Orting, and Buckley. Orting did give promising response, but haven’t changed anything.



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  18. #18
    Regular Member Sparky508's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevinWKuska View Post
    "As your mayor I currently hold coffee meetings the first Thursday of every month from 10-11 and I am in my office every Thursday from 10-4 for meetings without appointments and of course I am available for appointments throughout the week.".

    I see what I can come up with for trying to make this next month. Looks like the 5th of May. (When we celebrate the sinking of the condiments for some reason....) If anyone has the time or would be interested in joining me, let me know and well set something up and make sure we have all of our information in order.

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    Regular Member Just Us's Avatar
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    I'll make a request with my work for may 5th. I'll join you, if you can't make it let me know in the couple days.

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    Regular Member Just Us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky508 View Post
    Here is a picture of the sign down off of Pioneer I took last year or so. I worked them a little but, as things got busy it went by the way side. I'll start it back up again and see where we don’t get with it.
    I did run into an officer down there on that same day though, and while we talked about it nothing derogatory came of it. I also need to revisit Orting, and Buckley. Orting did give promising response, but haven’t changed anything.



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    I was in orting for the parade and the park with my boys. Multiple leo present and no contact from anyone. Though I didn't look at the postings.

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    Regular Member Sparky508's Avatar
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    Right on, PM sent.

  22. #22
    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Solution in the works

    I recieved the following response to my email sent to Tom Marks the Puyallup Parks Director.

    When any of you folks meet with the Mayor, you may want to craft your message as one of support to the good work and effort of her Parks Director and ask when we can expect to see the ordinance change hit the Council desk for adoption.

    Dear john,

    The following is a summary of a conversation with our office that occurred on 04/20/2011. Caller: john thomas.....Responder: tom mark

    Topic: Ordinance: 9.20.50 Parks Conversation Notes:

    Dear Mr. Thomas, Thank you for your inquiry regarding firearms in City Parks and I am pleased to hear that you and your family use our wonderful park system.

    The City recognizes your right to openly carry firearms within the City and its Parks.

    It is my understanding that the Puyallup Police Department has not nor would they arrest a person simply because they were openingly and peacefully carrying a firearm in a City Park.

    We have removed the word firearms from our parks rules signs and I am working with the City's Legal Department to draft an ordinanace that will harmonize PMC 9.20.050 with state law and the right for persons to openly carry firearms.

    Thank you again for your interest and feel free to contact me with any further questions or comments. My phone number is 253-841-5516.

    Sincerely, Thomas Mark,

    Parks And Recreation Director


    ....Carry on!
    Last edited by jt59; 04-20-2011 at 09:24 PM.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

  23. #23
    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    taking suggestions

    If any of you would like to channel some suggestions or have a good example of a "parks" code that we could forward, it seems that they are listening. My feedback comment to Tom, was regarding the often cited limits on shooting or fireing in a park being illegal with no exception clause to self defense of self or others....which also has the real potential of sending a message to the local thuggary if they read the sign and would be a real step change from the "serial" misinformation GoGo refers that we see or is missed in these ordinance revisions...

    Here is Mr. Marks response and offer to accept comment....I had asked him to notify me of progress (as in when drafts are being prepared, sent to someone or other for review, etc.)


    "Yes I will keep you informed on the progress of the ordinance revision. I am also going to forward your comments to the legal department for their consideration. I am working with Steve Kirkelie, Senior Assistant Attorney on this and he mentioned to me that you should feel free to contact him if you wish at 435-3620. Once again thank you for the information".

    So, the good news is that we have an open dialogue going, progress may be made, and it will likely take 3-6 months as it did in Pierce County Parks process.

    You may also contact him directly @ : tommark@ci.puyallup.wa.us

    no ranting at him please...he appears to be onside here to facilitate change.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goose View Post
    I'm heading to FW at 10am Wednesday to meet whomever is there. I'm bringing my laptop. I hae a 20min video (JUST found it!) from when Ani and I went to the Puyallup City Hall in February to discuss their codes with them. It's not overly informative but it'll give some insight into how they are viewing things. It's a big file, 1 Gig. I don't know how to shrink it or anything or I'd have it on photobucket for others to see how it went.

    I'll have my laptop for the rest of the trips this week. JT / Nick, do you have time to meet up, even if just for 20min between now and Monday to go over this by chance? Let me know.
    Either Thursday or Friday after 12:00, Saturday I plan on the Gun show, but around 12:00 or so...
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

  25. #25
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goose View Post
    I'm heading to FW at 10am Wednesday to meet whomever is there.
    I hope you won't be disappointed with “whomever”
    I sorry Sir everyone is in conference until end of business hours. Sir, if you speak Spanish I can have you meet with our grounds keeper, if you like.

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