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VA-ALERT: VA AG rules on "Good and Sufficient Reason" for churches!

TFred

TFred

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I can't believe I'm the first to post this.. Excellent news from VCDL's VA-ALERT:

Good news!

Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli has formally ruled that self-defense is considered "good and sufficient reason" for the lawful carry of handguns into a church during a service! (Good and sufficient reason isn't needed at other times.) The ruling also stated that churches, as private property, can ban or restrict such carry (which is consistent with Virginia law and would make for a trespass charge if violated).

This is excellent news also for the various preachers and pastors who have asked me about this issue.

Here is the ruling:

http://www.vaag.com/OPINIONS/2011opns/11-043.pdf

NOTE: This is an Attorney General's opinion. It carries a lot of weight, but is not law and is NOT a GUARANTEE that a judge will agree. In PRACTICE, however, this should pretty much settle the matter, especially if the General Assembly doesn't overturn it with a change to the law next year (there is about a zero chance of that happening).

VCDL would like to thank Delegate Mark Cole (Spotsylvania) for putting in the request on our behalf and Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli for a well-reasoned ruling.​

TFred
 
ocholsteroc

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I was about to post this here, I HAD A QUESTION!

Does a church, sence it runs sunday school, my church has ages 1~18 year olds in sunday school, we do not have a school during the week. Can we OC to church?

Where Unlawful to Carry
School property

§18.2-308.1: School property. Exemptions to this statute include a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school.


But Church is not a school, and we only have sunday school on sundays, no programs during the week. It is the churches propitory, not a school's???


If any person possesses any (i) stun weapon as defined in this section; (ii) knife, except a pocket knife having a folding metal blade of less than three inches; or (iii) weapon, including a weapon of like kind, designated in subsection A of § 18.2-308, other than a firearm; upon (a) the property of any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (b) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (c) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor

^ Sorry that one if for stun weapon/knifes


"B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (ii) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (iii) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony; however, if the person possesses any firearm within a public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school building and intends to use, or attempts to use, such firearm, or displays such weapon in a threatening manner, such person shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of five years to be served consecutively with any other sentence. "

What is defined as "school"? is sunday school a "school" A church is not a School untill they get a licence to run a preschool/kindergrander?

They need to becareful how they word this, now can carry at church. What if your church is running kindergrander school program.....
 
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ocholsteroc

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Thats more good news, so this year we have gotten the Church thing fixed.
And we had the state parks changed.


Now I want to hear more good news! change the darned college bans!!!!!!! :banana::monkey
 
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wylde007

wylde007

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The mass of hoplophobic reactionary response is nearly identical to the "blood will run in the streets" rhetoric we saw just before concealed firearms were allowed (shudder) in bars [sic].
 
vt357

vt357

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Most of the comments are the typical blind hysteria. But this one is pretty funny:

Pass it around with the safety off as an act of faith.
Click to expand...

Maybe we should ask the AG if "gun handling" like snake handling as an act of faith would constitute good and sufficient reason or if it is protected by the 1st amendment under freedom of religion. :D :D :D
 
peter nap

peter nap

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ocholsteroc said:
Thats more good news, so this year we have gotten the Church thing fixed.
And we had the state parks changed.


Now I want to hear more good news! change the darned college bans!!!!!!! :banana::monkey
Click to expand...

Fixed is a relative thing ocholsteric.

An AG opinion is just that, an opinion. It carries no weight of law and they are often disregarded.

Remember, McDonnell himself issued an opinion that State Agencies did not have the authority to ban weapons. That was not the first such AG Opinion and still it took until recently for any change to take place.
 
ocholsteroc

ocholsteroc

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peter nap said:
Fixed is a relative thing ocholsteric.

An AG opinion is just that, an opinion. It carries no weight of law and they are often disregarded.

Remember, McDonnell himself issued an opinion that State Agencies did not have the authority to ban weapons. That was not the first such AG Opinion and still it took until recently for any change to take place.
Click to expand...

I see...

But is a church a school? :confused:
 
peter nap

peter nap

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ocholsteroc said:
I see...

But is a church a school? :confused:
Click to expand...

That has been discussed before (Sunday School, not K-12) and really not decided. As far as I know there is no case law and like most things, if a Police Officer decides to push the issue, it gets expensive finding out.

My opinion, which won't even get you coffee at RCD...is no. Sunday School isn't a school under that law. My opinion also is that it's more beneficial than K-12.
 
ocholsteroc

ocholsteroc

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peter nap said:
That has been discussed before (Sunday School, not K-12) and really not decided. As far as I know there is no case law and like most things, if a Police Officer decides to push the issue, it gets expensive finding out.

My opinion, which won't even get you coffee at RCD...is no. Sunday School isn't a school under that law. My opinion also is that it's more beneficial than K-12.
Click to expand...

How can we be for sure? Is there a lawyer to define this for us?

I agree Sunday School isn't a school under law. Only if they are running a Kindergrander and up school program during the week.

Would a mother home schooling 3 kids ageing from 6th,8th 9th grade be a "school" in their house. :banghead:
 
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peter nap

peter nap

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ocholsteroc said:
How can we be for sure? Is there a lawyer to define this for us?
Click to expand...

User might jump in on this but IMO, you can't be sure.
Even after the statute is changed, unless it's just eliminated, it's hard to be 100% sure.

An example:
What is a secured container?:banghead:

You just have to make the most informed decision you can...and hope you don't run into someone who wants to push his weight around.
 
Lincoln7

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nova said:
I would not consider Sunday school a public or private elementary, middle, or high school. It is not K-12 and K-12 is the only "school" that is "GFZ".
Click to expand...

I think this is the correct answer. If I hold a shooting school for Boy Scouts at a shooting range, just because I call it a school where things are taught, doesn't mean K-12 rules apply.
 
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papa bear

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i have wondered for years, what business is it of the state, weather you carry a firearm into a church. in my, ever so humble, opinion a church is private property, and it is up to the members if they want to ban firearms.
 
Grapeshot

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Been carrying in church for years -one of the few times I CC.

This new "opinion" will just be added to my other "sufficient reasons" = mass shootings, terrorists and past threats from previous employment.
 
USNA69

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Armed said:
Pilot online has an article published already. And the usual anti-gun bantering that follows....

http://hamptonroads.com/2011/04/cuccinelli-concludes-guns-are-legal-church
Click to expand...

Of course, the article just had to begin with the words "Packing heat ..."

That is reporters' coded speech for "endangering everybody within a 100 yard radius by needlessly carrying a loaded gun, which could go off at any time and kill an innocent child".

I read nearly all of the 143 comments on the article and was dismayed that the anti's seem to outnumber the pro's, bases on the approval voting for each comment. That caused me to add this comment to the end:

Let the sheep continue be sheep, for they will always be in denial that wolves exist in the world to do them harm. I and my fellow carriers of sidearms will continue to be the sheepdogs, protecting the sheep from the wolf, despite the bleats of the sheep that the wolf does not exist. We know that the wolf DOES exist. We do not ask for the sheep's permission to do this. If nothing happens, the sheep will probably never know that the sheepdogs are among them. When the wolf arrives, many of the sheep will beg us to save them. And we will. That is what sheepdogs do.
 
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