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VA-ALERT: VA AG rules on "Good and Sufficient Reason" for churches!

vt357

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Dec 16, 2006
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i have wondered for years, what business is it of the state, weather you carry a firearm into a church. in my, ever so humble, opinion a church is private property, and it is up to the members if they want to ban firearms.

Well VA's ban on guns in church was forced upon us by the North after the failed war for Southern independence. Every able bodied man used to bring his gun to church and would train with the militia after the Sunday services. The government thought they could suppress a new rebellion by preventing the militia from being "well regulated" or well trained. It was one of the first of many violations of the 2nd Amendment.
 

MSC 45ACP

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TFred

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But then again, not all churches are "equal". Some are a bit more 'liberal leaning' than others.
Consider the Unitarian Universalists, for example:

http://www.uua.org/socialjustice/socialjustice/statements/14420.shtml

http://www.uua.org/socialjustice/socialjustice/statements/19787.shtml

When I was stationed in Boston and had a MA CHL, I visited one of their gatherings with a friend.
That was an 'interesting' experience to say the least. I thought I was in another country.
From the second link:

"6. Strong legislation forbidding use of "drop guns" by law enforcement officers."

That's LOL funny. I guess "bearing false witness" is still a no-no... As if you need a specific law against planting false evidence? Wow.

TFred
 

Repeater

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Richmond, Virginia, USA
Eugene Volokh has now blogged about this AG Opinion

He simply mentions this opinion, without comment. However, the comments that follow are intreresting. The commenter Kimball Kinnison is from Virginia and has a CHP:
I live in Virginia, have a CHP, and carry for personal protection. As a rule, I carry whenever and wherever I am legally allowed. Although I have never had to fire a gun in self defense, I have been in enough situations where it almost came to that point. (You try having a pothead hide a stash in your back yard, then come back prowling in the middle of the night, or have bounty hunters banging on your door at 1:20am.)

There is no justifiable reason to single churches out as a “Gun Free Zone”. In the case of the person who threatened me, they know when and where I go to church. I have a wife and young son to take care of, and I can’t do that if I am dead. I have not just a right, but an obligation to protect myself and my family from those who would do us harm. (And yes, on the basis of those threats, I have carried in church in Virginia. My family’s welfare is “good and sufficient reason”, and the only time that people would know whether I’m carrying or not is when events conspire to prove that I had good and sufficient reason” by actually having to use it.)
 

MSC 45ACP

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From the second link:

"6. Strong legislation forbidding use of "drop guns" by law enforcement officers."

That's LOL funny. I guess "bearing false witness" is still a no-no... As if you need a specific law against planting false evidence? Wow.

TFred

The expression on one guy's face when I told him I was carrying at that church... PRICELESS! Those folks are pretty 'odd'. They're kinda like Amish or Mennonites but lacking a Moral Compass.
 

MSC 45ACP

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I know of a church (Baptist, of course) in League City, Texas that has a Self-Defense Plan put together by members with CHLs. The Senior minister and Teen minister are "Team Leaders".
Sometimes I miss living in Texas. :-D
I hope they pass Open Carry this time around.
 

Wolf_shadow

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Accomac, Virginia, USA
WAVY 10 Report

WAVY 10 to have a report on the opinon on 5 O"Clock News. In the teaser one woman says "If God can't save you a gun can't." Maybe the gun can't but an armed responce to the attack can stop the BG. :banghead:
 

SicSemperTyrannis

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Henrico County ,
The AG offered his interpretion of the law, which carries great weight (without any force of law). I am pleased.

However, I have been frustrated reading in a couple sources that we "now" can carry in a house of worship with the purpose of self-defense. Reading some articles you'd think the AG gave gun owners a new right or this reflects some massive victory for gun owners. The AG simply publicly shared that he agrees with what many of us think was already obvious. This isn't a new statute - the AG has just offered his formal opinion.

At the very least, the AG's opinion seems to reflects something that has been true at least since Heller was decided (as it is specifically referenced).
 

Repeater

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Richmond, Virginia, USA
Not Larry Sabato

The AG offered his interpretion of the law, which carries great weight (without any force of law). I am pleased.

However, I have been frustrated reading in a couple sources that we "now" can carry in a house of worship with the purpose of self-defense. Reading some articles you'd think the AG gave gun owners a new right or this reflects some massive victory for gun owners. The AG simply publicly shared that he agrees with what many of us think was already obvious. This isn't a new statute - the AG has just offered his formal opinion.

At the very least, the AG's opinion seems to reflects something that has been true at least since Heller was decided (as it is specifically referenced).


For amusement, one can visit Not Larry Sabato on occasion. His blog on the AG opinion is here:

CUCCINELLI LEGALIZES GUNS IN CHURCH

Of course, that accords Ken more credit than required. Some of the comments are hilarious, such as:

That's right - cause nothing says "turn the other cheek" than packing heat.

...

Hey, he said churches could ban them if they wanted to. Next up: going through the metal detector to get to Mass.

...

The AG is correct.

Still, he is NUTZ for writing that letter in that manner...catering to the gun culture and further alienating moderates.

As usual, it helps to gauge the intensity of the hoplophobes to see how useful an AG opnion is.
 

Repeater

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Richmond, Virginia, USA
"The current state code is very poorly written"

This has a quote from Delegate Cole:

“The current state code is very poorly written, to the point of whether it’s even enforceable,” Cole, R-Spottsylvania, said Monday. “Why would you even write code like that?”

Cole in 2010 unsuccessfully sponsored legislation to clarify the law.

Cole said he sought the opinion the one-paragraph provision in the state’s criminal statutes after receiving inquiries from some churches in his district resulting from recent deadly shootings in churches.

Gunfire last month killed the pastor of an Illinois church and wounded two people in the congregation.

Of course, for "balance" the AP then quotes from a Brady Acolyte:

Brian Malte, a spokesman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said the opinion by the pro-gun Republican attorney general nudges Virginia closer toward making firearms more prevalent throughout society.

“Places of worship don’t need loaded guns brought into them,” Malte said. “The way Attorney General Cuccinelli states it, it looks like he’s giving an opening to guns in churches, and we oppose that.”
 

Repeater

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Ken receives the Sammie award

Samuel Adams, who was a strong defender of the RKBA, inspired the Sam Adams Alliance.

They have just awarded Cuccinelli with the Sammie Public Servant of the Year Award:

"I am grateful to receive the Public Servant of the Year Award from the Sam Adams Alliance. It was an honor to be considered, and it is an even greater honor to be the recipient of an award named for a patriot known for his ability to organize citizens at the local level to work together to achieve the national goal of an independent America built on first principles," said Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli. "I take my job as a public servant very seriously and I would like to thank the Sam Adams Alliance for this recognition."
 

ProShooter

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I know of a church (Baptist, of course) in League City, Texas that has a Self-Defense Plan put together by members with CHLs. The Senior minister and Teen minister are "Team Leaders".
Sometimes I miss living in Texas. :-D
I hope they pass Open Carry this time around.

Last year, I did a CHP class for a local Baptist church group. I imagine that they're now carrying during the service.
 

riverrat10k

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WAVY 10 to have a report on the opinon on 5 O"Clock News. In the teaser one woman says "If God can't save you a gun can't." Maybe the gun can't but an armed responce to the attack can stop the BG. :banghead:

Like the joke about the guy on his roof during a flood. Another guy comes by in canoe and says "Come on!" "No, the Lord will provide." Next a small boat comes by with an offer to help and again, "God's will be done". Next a helicopter and again the guy on the roof refuses help.

Finally, the floodwaters rise and the man drowns. Upon facing God, he asks, "Why, oh why Lord did you abandon me?"

And God proclaims: "I sent a canoe, a motorboat, and a helicopter, what more do you want?"
 

peter nap

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Last year, I did a CHP class for a local Baptist church group. I imagine that they're now carrying during the service.


Luke:
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
And if you don't have a permit...OC!:uhoh:
 

TFred

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Reading many of the comments to the various articles covering this.

The most spun-up of the anti-gun crazies are about to have a heart attack while screaming in disbelief "They want guns EVERYwhere!"

The only proper response to this is: "You better believe it!"

ANYWHERE a criminal can ILLEGALLY take a gun,
I want to be able to LEGALLY take a gun!
That needs to be a slogan and a sound bite and a rally call for RKBA all over the country! Anything less than that is pointless, and will eventually get innocent people killed.

If you want to create a Gun Free Zone, then you should be required to guarantee there are no guns, and provide security provisions to enforce that none will be present. Signs just don't cut it.

TFred
 

Grapeshot

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Reading many of the comments to the various articles covering this.

The most spun-up of the anti-gun crazies are about to have a heart attack while screaming in disbelief "They want guns EVERYwhere!"

The only proper response to this is: "You better believe it!"

<b>
ANYWHERE a criminal can ILLEGALLY take a gun,
I want to be able to LEGALLY take a gun!
</b>
That needs to be a slogan and a sound bite and a rally call for RKBA all over the country! Anything less than that is pointless, and will eventually get innocent people killed.

If you want to create a Gun Free Zone, then you should be required to guarantee there are no guns, and provide security provisions to enforce that none will be present. Signs just don't cut it.

TFred

There are few guarantees in life except for one and I am in no hurry to expedite that; therefore I shall do all in my power to delay that eventuality by defending that which is not yours to take......my life.
 

USNA69

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Feb 13, 2010
Messages
375
Location
Norfolk, Virginia, USA
Reading many of the comments to the various articles covering this.

The most spun-up of the anti-gun crazies are about to have a heart attack while screaming in disbelief "They want guns EVERYwhere!"

The only proper response to this is: "You better believe it!"


<B>

ANYWHERE a criminal can ILLEGALLY take a gun,
</B>

I want to be able to LEGALLY take a gun!

That needs to be a slogan and a sound bite and a rally call for RKBA all over the country! Anything less than that is pointless, and will eventually get innocent people killed.

If you want to create a Gun Free Zone, then you should be required to guarantee there are no guns, and provide security provisions to enforce that none will be present. Signs just don't cut it.

TFred

Try to hear the following words as if they were being spoken by laconic stand-up comic, Steven Wright. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgYXc3gnlkU

"I put up a sign on my home which said 'No Robberies'.
Somebody stole it."
 
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peter nap

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If you want to create a Gun Free Zone, then you should be required to guarantee there are no guns, and provide security provisions to enforce that none will be present. Signs just don't cut it.

TFred

All that reminds me of a problem I had with DGIF a couple of years ago.
My bears get into the Deer feeders. Feeding Deer is perfectly legal but it is not legal to feed Bears.

I posted a few Bear pictures and got an email form some Husband/Wife combo up North about baiting Bears. They complained to DGIF and I got a call from a Game Warden, warning me about it.

I put up signs at all the feeders that said "NO BEARS, You will be prosecuted"
I set up game cameras and sure enough, the Bears kept coming around.

I took the pictures to the Game Warden and asked him to ticket the bears for trespassing.

He told me Bears don't pay attention to signs.
 
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grylnsmn

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Dec 28, 2010
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Pacific Northwest
He simply mentions this opinion, without comment. However, the comments that follow are intreresting. The commenter Kimball Kinnison is from Virginia and has a CHP:

That commenter would be me. (Kimball Kinnison was the Gray Lensman in E. E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman novels, hence my screen name here.)

Of course, I've mentioned those incidents (the bounty hunters, the pothead prowler, and the crazy ex-wife making threats) here before. I will be honest, I didn't really start carrying at church until after the LDS Bishop was shot in California last August. Now, it's best to assume that I am armed, period.

My ancestors (on my mother's side) go back to the Mormon pioneers. One of them was a survivor of the Haun's Mill Massacre in 1838. (Incidentally, some of my father's ancestors were among those persecuting the Mormons in Missouri.) Many of my ancestors were attacked and some of them killed because of their religion. I can't rely on anyone else stopping someone from trying to do the same to me and my family today.
 
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