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Thread: Man Arrested For Gun In Bar

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    Man Arrested For Gun In Bar

    From the Northern Virginia Daily:

    http://www.nvdaily.com/news/2011/04/...n-arrested.php

    Pulling gun at bar gets man arrested

    WINCHESTER -- A man was arrested Monday after he displayed a handgun at a city bar, police said.

    Saylor was charged with public intoxication, possession of a firearm by a convicted felon, brandishing the weapon and carrying a gun in the bar while intoxicated or possessing alcohol.

    A man who was sitting next to Saylor at the time declined to identify himself. The bartender would not comment.


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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armed View Post
    From the Northern Virginia Daily:

    http://www.nvdaily.com/news/2011/04/...n-arrested.php

    Pulling gun at bar gets man arrested

    WINCHESTER -- A man was arrested Monday after he displayed a handgun at a city bar, police said.

    Saylor was charged with public intoxication, possession of a firearm by a convicted felon, brandishing the weapon and carrying a gun in the bar while intoxicated or possessing alcohol.

    A man who was sitting next to Saylor at the time declined to identify himself. The bartender would not comment.


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    Not real bright, is he?

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Not real bright, is he?
    To the extent that this story "has legs," let's see what the commentators or the press have to say about this incident, i.e., whether they concentrate on the possession of a gun in a bar*, or that the person was a convicted felon in illegal possession of a firearm no matter where he was or whether he was intoxicated.

    He obviously did not care about the minor laws he was breaking, and the felon-possessing crime should send him back to the big house for a while...

    I suspect, given the headline -- designed to inflame --, that we will see 'outrage' over this example of in-bar/restaurant carrying...



    [*which, as we know doesn't exist in Virginia, but the headline would not have made sense by calling it a "restaurant"]

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Though VA didn't have "bars"
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    "carrying a gun in the bar while intoxicated or possessing alcohol"

    Just curious, what law is this violating?

    TFred

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    "carrying a gun in the bar while intoxicated or possessing alcohol"

    Just curious, what law is this violating?

    TFred
    The story is poorly written, they do not know any laws and there is no 'bars' in VA.

    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 04-12-2011 at 11:49 AM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Under Virginia Law 18.2-308(J)(3) Open Carry of a Firearm into a Place Licensed to Sell Alcohol by The Virginia Alcohol Control Board, or while Intoxicated, is NOT a Crime.

    Only while The Firearm is Concealed, is when a Crime is Commited.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    Under Virginia Law 18.2-308(J)(3) Open Carry of a Firearm into a Place Licensed to Sell Alcohol by The Virginia Alcohol Control Board, or while Intoxicated, is NOT a Crime.

    Only while The Firearm is Concealed, is when a Crime is Commited.
    Yeah but only if you have a CHP!

    This was one of those stupid things that is impossible to even address because the Police are just writing anything they can think of, and the Press isn't doing anything but writing what the Police give em.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    Under Virginia Law 18.2-308(J)(3) Open Carry of a Firearm into a Place Licensed to Sell Alcohol by The Virginia Alcohol Control Board, or while Intoxicated, is NOT a Crime.

    Only while The Firearm is Concealed, is when a Crime is Commited.
    Only if you enter concealed. If you enter OC, conceal after you enter, then drink a beer, what law have you broken?
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Only if you enter concealed. If you enter OC, conceal after you enter, then drink a beer, what law have you broken?





    So if you enter a store like applebee's that sells alcohol, while CC'ing and never drink thats a crime?

    I thought the new law passed to allow CC holders to be in a place like applebee's CC'ing without OC? as long as they do not drink.
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 04-12-2011 at 04:56 PM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    sed to allow CC holders to be in a place like applebee's CC'ing without OC? as long as they do not drink.
    I think it's pretty clear that was their intent (not from anything in the code mind you)... but we shouldn't have to guess. The problem is we need more literate legislators.
    Last edited by t33j; 04-12-2011 at 07:31 PM.
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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post


    So if you enter a store like applebee's that sells alcohol, while CC'ing and never drink thats a crime?

    I thought the new law passed to allow CC holders to be in a place like applebee's CC'ing without OC? as long as they do not drink.
    if you enter CC you are not permitted to drink alcoholic beverages. As long as you do not drink you have broken no law. If you enter OC theoretically you can legally drink alcohol and have broken no law. Personally I feal it is bad form to drink in public while armed due to apearance only. And as always remember IANAL.

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    But what if you enter the restaurant CC, then remove your coat, and are then OC, and have a drink?

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf_shadow
    If you enter CC you are not permitted to drink alcoholic beverages.
    If you enter OC theoretically you can legally drink alcohol and have broken no law.
    Man, that's a goofy law.
    (Can someone post the statute so we can see what it actually says?)

    As Thundar pointed out, under the letter of the law as long as you come through the door OC you are then allowed to conceal and drink.

    How would someone prove that you didn't enter OC? Because if that's an element of the 'crime', the State would have to prove that you did it that way. Unless there's a camera covering the door, they're SOL. Given that most people don't notice OC, witness statements are even less useful than they would usually be.

    I wouldn't have more than maybe one beer or glass of wine with dinner while carrying.
    Getting blotto is just stupid, and even more so when armed.
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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Man, that's a goofy law.
    (Can someone post the statute so we can see what it actually says?)
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1506668
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    "carrying a gun in the bar while intoxicated or possessing alcohol"

    Just curious, what law is this violating?

    TFred
    Well, if he was engaged in hunting while in the "bar", § 18.2-285 would apply.

    If he has a concealed carry permit, then 18.2-308 (J1. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. ...") applies, but it's not likely a convicted felon has the permit. (Violation of the Constitutional provision regarding equal protection of the laws?) Btw, J3 applies to a concealed weapon, whether or not the person carrying has a permit.

    I also wonder how "displaying" the firearm constitutes "brandishing".

    Now, if they got him for spitting on the floor, or "profanely swearing" while intoxicated, that'd be good for a class-four misdemeanor.
    Last edited by user; 04-12-2011 at 07:43 PM.
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    "I was drunk in a Bar... they THREW me... into pub-lic"

    -Ron White

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    It's probably not as difficult as some make it.

    The simple fact is that the part of the law concerning CHPs and carrying into a restaurant and consuming alcohol is poorly written.

    The law makes use of the phrase "person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises".

    What does that mean? To a literalist, it means the law only applies to someone who crosses a property line while carrying a concealed handgun. An act that takes only a fraction of a second. I doubt any LEO or judge would agree, but of course it's new, there are no cases that I am aware of to clarify.

    It is probably safer to assume that they meant you can't drink while you are carrying a concealed handgun. The status of the gun when you drove into the parking lot, or walked through the door probably doesn't really matter.

    I'm sure many would argue (here) that I'm wrong. I doubt you will see them lining up to argue the point in front of a judge.

    TFred

    Here is the pertinent paragraph from the code:

    J3. No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. However, nothing in this subsection shall apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epilogue View Post
    "I was drunk in a Bar... they THREW me... into pub-lic"

    -Ron White
    Don't you mean "Ron ('tater salad) White?"



    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 04-13-2011 at 12:45 AM.

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    I don't see a realistic opening to legally consume alcohol for those who initially carry a sidearm onto the first portion of property that has been licensed to dispense alcohol for on premises consumption. The only possible opening I could see is if you carry your sidearm openly into an alcohol dispensary ordered your drink and then concealed your sidearm and drink your drink without moving from the exact location in which you first concealed your sidearm. If you step outside of that exact location you have stepped from one portion of the property with an concealed carried sidearm, onto another portion of the property licensed to dispense alcohol and consumed the alcohol, thereby violating the statute. In each movement once the sidearm is concealed, a person has carried a concealed handgun onto the property licensed to dispense alcohol for on site consumption, although it may be a different portion of the property licensed to dispense alcohol for on site consumption.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 04-13-2011 at 09:20 AM.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    There has been some very interesting hair-splitting going on in this thread regarding walking in OCing, then concealing and ordering a drink, with or without a CHP. Makes one's mind boggle at the permutations.

    IMHO, a reasonable person -- including the judge -- would most likely say that the law, while it may be somewhat poorly written, prohibits the consumption of an alcoholic beverage while carrying concealed. The CHP aspect is moot: if you have a CHP, you are prohibited from imbibing. If you conceal without a CHP, you are in violation of other parts of the code. Either way, you're in trouble (if caught).

    I invite those who believe that you can walk in OCing, and then conceal and imbibe to test that case and let us know how it works out. Inquiring minds want to know.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    [...lots of common sense stuff snipped...]

    I invite those who believe that you can walk in OCing, and then conceal and imbibe to test that case and let us know how it works out. Inquiring minds want to know.
    My thoughts exactly...

    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    I don't see a realistic opening to legally consume alcohol for those who initially carry a sidearm onto the first portion of property that has been licensed to dispense alcohol for on premises consumption. The only possible opening I could see is if you carry your sidearm openly into an alcohol dispensary ordered your drink and then concealed your sidearm and drink your drink without moving from the exact location in which you first concealed your sidearm. If you step outside of that exact location you have stepped from one portion of the property with an concealed carried sidearm, onto another portion of the property licensed to dispense alcohol and consumed the alcohol, thereby violating the statute. In each movement once the sidearm is concealed, a person has carried a concealed handgun onto the property licensed to dispense alcohol for on site consumption, although it may be a different portion of the property licensed to dispense alcohol for on site consumption.
    IANAL, and I'm pretty sure you aren't either... but I do have a fairly good understanding of English, I don't think anyone would agree with your use of "onto."

    "Onto" explicitly implies starting from somewhere "off", not moving around within.

    You step "onto" a boat. You don't walk around "onto" a boat once you are on board the boat.

    JMHO,

    TFred

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    TFred if you're on a boat and you take a step to a place that is also on the boat are you not stepping onto the boat? If you're not stepping onto the boat (although a new portion of the boat) are you then stepping onto something different altogether? What is the nature of this new thing that you are stepping onto if it is not boat (or a part of the boat)?

    Note that the code does not say "No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club from premises that are not a portion of the premises of the club or restaurant...." Were I some prosecutor wishing to enforce this statute against someone who did not stay in the exact spot in which they concealed their handgun and drank their alcoholic beverage I would likely only seek to prosecute for one count rather than for individual counts for each place they carried their concealed firearm onto the premises and then drank, because I'm a nice guy like that.

    I am not an attorney.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 04-13-2011 at 12:13 PM.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    My thoughts exactly...


    IANAL, and I'm pretty sure you aren't either... but I do have a fairly good understanding of English, I don't think anyone would agree with your use of "onto."

    "Onto" explicitly implies starting from somewhere "off", not moving around within.

    You step "onto" a boat. You don't walk around "onto" a boat once you are on board the boat.

    JMHO,

    TFred
    See, some of you are beginning to catch on. I have understood this for some years now. "Onto" is not a continuing offense. Once you have carried your gun "onto" the premises, the act is complete.

    Compare with the classic courthouse ban.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    TFred if you're on a boat and you take a step to a place that is also on the boat are you not stepping onto the boat?
    My understanding of the English language is no. To step "on" implies that you were "off". You can't turn a light "on" that is already "on". "On" is a boolean value. You can't be more "on" than "on".

    If you really don't get that, then English must not be your primary language. If you do but just don't want to admit it, then you are trying to stretch the law to mean what you want it to mean, and not what it does mean.

    In either case, as invited before, please feel free to be the first test case, I'm sure we will all follow along with much interest.

    TFred

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