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Thread: Why in the heck does everyone continue on with the term.....

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    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Why in the heck does everyone continue on with the term.....

    Gun-show loophole..

    There, I said it. Its a stupid term.

    Its really nothing to do with a gun-show, nor is it a loophole. Why do people (even pro-gun peeps) carry on using it?

    We all know its just the simple transaction of a private sale between two parties who are not FFL's. So why the continuation of using the term? Are people really that dumb?

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    I've never used that term. At first because I didn't know what it was, having just heard that some "loophole" exists at gunshows dealing with firearms laws. Later, after I educated myself, I do not use it because it is as meaningful as assault clips, assault weapons, assault pigeons, assault forks and every other meaningless term progressives come up with to try an evoke emotion in those ignorant of a subject matter. I have not heard any profirearms person ever use that term.

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    Loophole? Why don't we just conduct private sales in Wal-Mart parking lots instead.... Then it will be the Wal-Mart Loophole....
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VW_Factor View Post
    Gun-show loophole..

    There, I said it. Its a stupid term.

    Its really nothing to do with a gun-show, nor is it a loophole. Why do people (even pro-gun peeps) carry on using it?

    We all know its just the simple transaction of a private sale between two parties who are not FFL's. So why the continuation of using the term? Are people really that dumb?
    The libs and antis are mostly that idiotic and the ones that are not are aware that the rest are and they prey upon that idiocy.

    Another stupid term is "gun crime" used by libs and antis for the same reason and with the same effect.

    Those of us who are aware of the fallacies of these two terms should do what ever is within our power to eliminate them from the lexicon of all languages used in this country.
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    I like the "gun crime" one! Its a beautiful way to outright LIE! Instead of talking about violent crime or just murder it shifts the talk to tools used in violent crime! As if a person is better off being killed by knife or poison or bomb than a gun. Also, it ignores any other violent crime thus it indicates almost nothing about crime! A country could tout having 0 gun crimes and the brady bunch would be happy even if the murder rate was 1 per every 10 people annually.

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    There are several reasons for people continuing to use the term. One it sounds great in the media and can be used to incite support for the antis. Second it sounds good for politicians to use it in trying to make people think they actually doing something. Third it is normally used by people who think that it is a real loophole and have no idea what they are talking about.

    Lastly there are some people that actually use it for a business model. At every gun show you will see someone with guns labled "Private sale". That way they do not require a FFL or pay taxes on their sales or profits. Interestingly sometimes you will see the same person at show after show selling these "Private sale" guns. What some are doing is usually supplementing their income with a gun business sideline but calling it private sales. That way they don't have to worry about the paperwork or tax man. For them it is a gunshow loophole.

    But the OP is correct that there is no such thing but the term is not about to die. The one thing that we should be concerned about is that if they try to close the gunshow loophole what will it do to legitimate private sales.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    gun show loophole legal transaction.

    There fixed it.
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    isnt commerce, and sales by private individuals not only a part of our heritage, and culture, but in my opinion a fundamental right, and a right of privacy. Kinda one of them Shall Not Be Infringed moments?

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    I don't have any direct issue with the term gun crime. I view the term as simply describing the weapon used in the crime similar to if someone said knife crime or whatever. My issue is how people either refuse to look at the whole picture or think that gun crime is magically worse than some other type of crime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VW_Factor View Post
    Gun-show loophole..

    There, I said it. Its a stupid term...
    But...but...but...the effort to close the "loophole" is "for the children."

    Are you against children?!?

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Every opportunity I have to educate (either in person or via comments on a 'news' article) I point out that the 'loophole' is imaginary.
    Some media have started using quotes around the phrase, or at least around 'loophole', which I see as a very encouraging sign.

    Another term we must remove from our own usage is "CCW" instead of concealed carry, permit to carry, concealed carry permit, etc.
    CCW = concealed carry of weapons, a crime.
    CC = concealed carry, not necessarily a crime.
    OC = open carry, not necessarily a crime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Every opportunity I have to educate (either in person or via comments on a 'news' article) I point out that the 'loophole' is imaginary.
    Some media have started using quotes around the phrase, or at least around 'loophole', which I see as a very encouraging sign.

    Another term we must remove from our own usage is "CCW" instead of concealed carry, permit to carry, concealed carry permit, etc.
    CCW = concealed carry of weapons, a crime.
    CC = concealed carry, not necessarily a crime.
    OC = open carry, not necessarily a crime.
    Actually, much to the chagrin of another poster who is on a crusade to end the use of "CCW," in at least one State, it is the acronym the State uses to refer to the license. Also, the abbreviation also stands for "concealed carry weapon," the concealed firearm itself, not just the crime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Every opportunity I have to educate (either in person or via comments on a 'news' article) I point out that the 'loophole' is imaginary.
    Some media have started using quotes around the phrase, or at least around 'loophole', which I see as a very encouraging sign.

    Another term we must remove from our own usage is "CCW" instead of concealed carry, permit to carry, concealed carry permit, etc.
    CCW = concealed carry of weapons, a crime.
    CC = concealed carry, not necessarily a crime.
    OC = open carry, not necessarily a crime.
    I don't agree with people that say that CCW is a bad term. While you need a CWP or whatever your state calls the license, the weapon itself is still a CCW as its a concealed carried weapon. Remember that CCing at all without a CWP is a crime ad its the CWP that exempts you from the law.

    One could also argue that both CC and OC are really just shortened versions of CCW and OCW and that the W for weapon is dropped because its implied that one is talking about a weapon. Weapon is the noun you're talking about with concealed/open describing how your carrying it.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    I don't agree with people that say that CCW is a bad term. While you need a CWP or whatever your state calls the license, the weapon itself is still a CCW as its a concealed carried weapon. Remember that CCing at all without a CWP is a crime ad its the CWP that exempts you from the law.

    One could also argue that both CC and OC are really just shortened versions of CCW and OCW and that the W for weapon is dropped because its implied that one is talking about a weapon. Weapon is the noun you're talking about with concealed/open describing how your carrying it.
    Words are important - they convey meaning.

    CCW is not a bad term, but it is in many cases inaccurate. In Va. the correct acronym would be a CHP

    The weapon (handgun) itself is definitely NOT a CCW. What if I'm OCing? You are saying that it is a concealed carry weapon carried openly - I don't think so. The handgun is independent of any attributes that make it concealed or open carried.

    CCing w/o a permit is NOT in and of itself a crime. There are 4 states now where permits are not required to CC. In other states a permit is not needed in your home, business or when hunting or fishing.

    Where a permit is required to legally conceal, possession of a permit does not exempt one from the law, but provides an exception to the law making in otherwise illegal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Actually, much to the chagrin of another poster who is on a crusade to end the use of "CCW," in at least one State, it is the acronym the State uses to refer to the license. Also, the abbreviation also stands for "concealed carry weapon," the concealed firearm itself, not just the crime.

    That would be Missouri. And, we have no crime called "Concealed carry of a weapon" for that matter. Illegal concealed carry is covered under the crime "Unlawful use of a weapon"

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    Regular Member Huck's Avatar
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    "Loophole". Something legal that libs dont like.
    "You can teach 'em, but you cant learn 'em."

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    In order for the media to sell ad space they create buzz words or terms to attract the attention of the brain dead, drooling, gap mouthed zombie hordes. The more they dumb it down the more zombies they hook. The more zombies they hook the more they charge for ad space.

    The end.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 04-14-2011 at 03:39 PM.
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    Death panels. Seriously, politicians have folks working for them that do nothing but come up with buzz words/phrases for policies or laws that they want to promote or stop.

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    because it is a loophole in the law that is routinely exploited at gun shows

    and because its catchy
    Last edited by bomber; 04-15-2011 at 05:24 PM.

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    Media buzzword.

    They come up with the terms that suit their own particular agenda, the average ordinary American who doesn't take the time to think for himself parrots the terms and furthers the agenda.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

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    Regular Member SteyrAUG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bomber View Post
    because it is a loophole in the law that is routinely exploited at gun shows

    and because its catchy

    Otherwise known as a "legal practice."

    Gun dealers have to do backgrounds checks at ANY location.

    Private individuals do NOT.

    A private individual who sells a gun at a gun show is exactly the same as a private individual who sells a gun to his buddy at his house. He is NOT a dealer, he is not subject to dealer requirements.

    A gun dealer IS subject to dealer requirements any place he sells a gun.

    What advocates of "closing the loophole" are trying to accomplish is making a private individual subject to the same requirements as a gun dealer.

    It is hardly a loophole so much as it is a an excessive burden on a private individual, infringement of the rights of a private individual and the advocacy of greater government bureaucracy.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    Otherwise known as a "legal practice."

    Gun dealers have to do backgrounds checks at ANY location.

    Private individuals do NOT.

    A private individual who sells a gun at a gun show is exactly the same as a private individual who sells a gun to his buddy at his house. He is NOT a dealer, he is not subject to dealer requirements.

    A gun dealer IS subject to dealer requirements any place he sells a gun.

    What advocates of "closing the loophole" are trying to accomplish is making a private individual subject to the same requirements as a gun dealer.

    It is hardly a loophole so much as it is a an excessive burden on a private individual, infringement of the rights of a private individual and the advocacy of greater government bureaucracy.
    i'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. i appreciate the option to buy from private parties and have done it before.

    i'm just saying, its a loophole

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    Quote Originally Posted by bomber View Post
    i'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. i appreciate the option to buy from private parties and have done it before.

    i'm just saying, its a loophole
    A loophole is method of skirting the law that the lawmakers never intended. In this case, the lawmakers were trying to restrict gun merchants, folks in the business of buying and selling guns, not individuals. The law as it is does just that. That individuals may sell their privately-owned firearms, out of their home or at a gun show, is as the law intended. That such is what the law intended makes the ability of a private sale taking place at and during a gun show NOT a loophole.

    The word is inapplicable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Words are important - they convey meaning.

    CCW is not a bad term, but it is in many cases inaccurate. In Va. the correct acronym would be a CHP

    The weapon (handgun) itself is definitely NOT a CCW. What if I'm OCing? You are saying that it is a concealed carry weapon carried openly - I don't think so. The handgun is independent of any attributes that make it concealed or open carried.
    Even in Va. It's still a CCW, but it is your CHP that allows it to be legal. And yes the weapon itself IS a CCW if its concealed. Because CCW is concealed carried weapon. If you were to openly carry it then it would be an OCW or openly carried weapon. Now weapon/handgun/whatever you want to call it is generally dropped from speech because everyone knows what's being talked about.

    All that I was saying is that CC and OC are just shortened versions of CCW and OCW. Open/concealed is your adjective. Carried is your verb. Weapon is your noun.

    CCing w/o a permit is NOT in and of itself a crime. There are 4 states now where permits are not required to CC. In other states a permit is not needed in your home, business or when hunting or fishing.
    And just what are you CCing? A weapon. And that is what I've been saying. With OC/CC you have an adjective and a verb, but it doesn't make sense without a noun (the noun is implied, which is why it generally isn't said). Now some people prefer to be more specific about what type of weapon they OC/CC, but the fact that your carrying something to defend yourself with makes it a weapon by the very definition of what a weapon is.

    Where a permit is required to legally conceal, possession of a permit does not exempt one from the law, but provides an exception to the law making in otherwise illegal.
    Now I'm not that great when it comes to legalise, but how is one who has an exception and thus can't be legally tried for a crime not exempt from the law governing that crime? To me it would be an exemption that is just very limited in scope.

    Oh and none of this looks at what is politically correct to say in order to not upset anyone. But as you say, words have meaning and as such I'm simply looking at the meaning of the words used. And OC/CC simply don't make sense without a noun; regardless of if that noun is implied or actually said it needs to be there for everything to make sense.

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    Brady Campaign against gun violence would be correctly be called the killer of innocent americans due to ignorance

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