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Why in the heck does everyone continue on with the term.....

SteyrAUG

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2011
Messages
26
Location
Broward County
because it is a loophole in the law that is routinely exploited at gun shows

and because its catchy


Otherwise known as a "legal practice."

Gun dealers have to do backgrounds checks at ANY location.

Private individuals do NOT.

A private individual who sells a gun at a gun show is exactly the same as a private individual who sells a gun to his buddy at his house. He is NOT a dealer, he is not subject to dealer requirements.

A gun dealer IS subject to dealer requirements any place he sells a gun.

What advocates of "closing the loophole" are trying to accomplish is making a private individual subject to the same requirements as a gun dealer.

It is hardly a loophole so much as it is a an excessive burden on a private individual, infringement of the rights of a private individual and the advocacy of greater government bureaucracy.
 

bomber

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
499
Location
, ,
Otherwise known as a "legal practice."

Gun dealers have to do backgrounds checks at ANY location.

Private individuals do NOT.

A private individual who sells a gun at a gun show is exactly the same as a private individual who sells a gun to his buddy at his house. He is NOT a dealer, he is not subject to dealer requirements.

A gun dealer IS subject to dealer requirements any place he sells a gun.

What advocates of "closing the loophole" are trying to accomplish is making a private individual subject to the same requirements as a gun dealer.

It is hardly a loophole so much as it is a an excessive burden on a private individual, infringement of the rights of a private individual and the advocacy of greater government bureaucracy.

i'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. i appreciate the option to buy from private parties and have done it before.

i'm just saying, its a loophole
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
i'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. i appreciate the option to buy from private parties and have done it before.

i'm just saying, its a loophole

A loophole is method of skirting the law that the lawmakers never intended. In this case, the lawmakers were trying to restrict gun merchants, folks in the business of buying and selling guns, not individuals. The law as it is does just that. That individuals may sell their privately-owned firearms, out of their home or at a gun show, is as the law intended. That such is what the law intended makes the ability of a private sale taking place at and during a gun show NOT a loophole.

The word is inapplicable.
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
Words are important - they convey meaning.

CCW is not a bad term, but it is in many cases inaccurate. In Va. the correct acronym would be a CHP

The weapon (handgun) itself is definitely NOT a CCW. What if I'm OCing? You are saying that it is a concealed carry weapon carried openly - I don't think so. The handgun is independent of any attributes that make it concealed or open carried.

Even in Va. It's still a CCW, but it is your CHP that allows it to be legal. And yes the weapon itself IS a CCW if its concealed. Because CCW is concealed carried weapon. If you were to openly carry it then it would be an OCW or openly carried weapon. Now weapon/handgun/whatever you want to call it is generally dropped from speech because everyone knows what's being talked about.

All that I was saying is that CC and OC are just shortened versions of CCW and OCW. Open/concealed is your adjective. Carried is your verb. Weapon is your noun.

CCing w/o a permit is NOT in and of itself a crime. There are 4 states now where permits are not required to CC. In other states a permit is not needed in your home, business or when hunting or fishing.

And just what are you CCing? A weapon. And that is what I've been saying. With OC/CC you have an adjective and a verb, but it doesn't make sense without a noun (the noun is implied, which is why it generally isn't said). Now some people prefer to be more specific about what type of weapon they OC/CC, but the fact that your carrying something to defend yourself with makes it a weapon by the very definition of what a weapon is.

Where a permit is required to legally conceal, possession of a permit does not exempt one from the law, but provides an exception to the law making in otherwise illegal.

Now I'm not that great when it comes to legalise, but how is one who has an exception and thus can't be legally tried for a crime not exempt from the law governing that crime? To me it would be an exemption that is just very limited in scope.

Oh and none of this looks at what is politically correct to say in order to not upset anyone. But as you say, words have meaning and as such I'm simply looking at the meaning of the words used. And OC/CC simply don't make sense without a noun; regardless of if that noun is implied or actually said it needs to be there for everything to make sense.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Even in Va. It's still a CCW, but it is your CHP that allows it to be legal. And yes the weapon itself IS a CCW if its concealed. Because CCW is concealed carried weapon. If you were to openly carry it then it would be an OCW or openly carried weapon. Now weapon/handgun/whatever you want to call it is generally dropped from speech because everyone knows what's being talked about.

All that I was saying is that CC and OC are just shortened versions of CCW and OCW. Open/concealed is your adjective. Carried is your verb. Weapon is your noun.

It is unquestionably NOT "still a CCW" in Va.

Before shall issue, we had a CWP (concealed weapons permit) which authorized/legalized the carry of certain weapons in addition to a handgun. We now have a CHP (concealed handgun permit). The two are quite different and may consequentially not be substituted one for the other.

Open carry in Va. does not require any form of permit (the subject of this thread) so your manufactured terminology of "OCW" is rather strange and inapplicable.

OC and CC are gun internet shorthand for the condition in which one may carry, but NOT viable substitutes for whatever term is proper for a permit.

It is also extremely presumptuous and condescending to presume to lecture me on grammatical use, especially with words/terms that do not apply.

If one wishes to speak generically, the word "permit" suffices in most cases. Otherwise, with the laws not being consistent from state to state, it becomes incumbent on us to know the difference.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Me very like much the structure of sentence you make use.

Word inventing necessaritially does strong impressment create sometimes, too.

:p:)

Some languages have relatively restrictive word orders, often relying on the order of constituents to convey important grammatical information. Others, often those that convey grammatical information through inflection, allow more flexibility which can be used to encode pragmatic information such as topicalisation or focus.

Hyperbaton is just one of the devises so utilized.

Free tutoring can be arranged for a nominal fee...:p..:lol:
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Oh, thank you! No. I'm not sure how much of that I could take.

I hope this doesn't cause any consequentials between us.

The consequences would consistently be inconsequential if you acquiesce and are not contrarily committed.....capisci? :p
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
It is unquestionably NOT "still a CCW" in Va.

Before shall issue, we had a CWP (concealed weapons permit) which authorized/legalized the carry of certain weapons in addition to a handgun. We now have a CHP (concealed handgun permit). The two are quite different and may consequentially not be substituted one for the other.

Open carry in Va. does not require any form of permit (the subject of this thread) so your manufactured terminology of "OCW" is rather strange and inapplicable.

OC and CC are gun internet shorthand for the condition in which one may carry, but NOT viable substitutes for whatever term is proper for a permit.

It is also extremely presumptuous and condescending to presume to lecture me on grammatical use, especially with words/terms that do not apply.

If one wishes to speak generically, the word "permit" suffices in most cases. Otherwise, with the laws not being consistent from state to state, it becomes incumbent on us to know the difference.

You have apparently completely missed the point. I was NEVER talking about a permit outside of the fact that a permit is sometimes needed to CC(W) legally so I don't know why you keep bringing it up. If you go back to my original post I was saying that CCW isn't an improper term as CC is just short for CCW. You even admit this by stating CC/OC are internet short hand. You then bring up the permit crap again when I was never saying to use those terms in place of the proper term for the state's license. Oh and looking things over again you completely ignore what I say after the comma. I stated that in Va. One could CCW and it wouldn't be a crime, BUT they would need a CHP to do so legally. And yet you fly off the handle thinking I'm saying you can substitute the term CCW for CHP.

My original post was simply stating that I don't agree with saying that "CCW" is always a crime. Yes there's a law that uses that specific verbage, but that doesn't instantly make the term incorrect when a LAC concealed carries a weapon. And depending on the state a person simply needs a permit to be able to CCW. I also know there's a state that calls their permit CCW. But this was never about permits (outside of stating a permit is generally needed to legally CC) and was always about terminology for the legal carrying of a weapon. And the fact remains that assuming the state requires a permit and the individual has the permit they can legally CCW.

Oh and I also stated that CC/OC are simply shorthand; something else you admitted to. And to figure out what they are shorthand for one needs to simply fill in the missing noun. And regardless of what word you choose (firearm, gun, handgun, etc) they would all fall under the term "weapon." Hence me saying that OC/CC are technically short for OCW/CCW.
 

Grapeshot

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Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
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You have apparently completely missed the point. I was NEVER talking about a permit outside of the fact that a permit is sometimes needed to CC(W) legally so I don't know why you keep bringing it up...............

I stated that in Va. One could CCW and it wouldn't be a crime, BUT they would need a CHP to do so legally. And yet you fly off the handle thinking I'm saying you can substitute the term CCW for CHP.

I am not "flying off the handle." I am correcting flawed information whether real or implied. This is not a personal war or flame.

Example: In Virginia it is a crime to conceal weapons beyond those specifically exempted and having a CHP would NOT make it legal.
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

There are other states with similar statutes.

Therefore CCW is NOT substitutable for our CHP.
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
Actually, much to the chagrin of another poster who is on a crusade to end the use of "CCW," in at least one State, it is the acronym the State uses to refer to the license. Also, the abbreviation also stands for "concealed carry weapon," the concealed firearm itself, not just the crime.

Not entirely true...

The only state that puts the term CCW on their "permit" that I know of is MO, and they put the "endorsement" of "CCW" on their driver's licenses, because they don't issue seperate cards like most states.

However. NOWHERE in the Statutes of MO do they use the term "CCW" to describe their permit. In the statute is is a "Concealed Carry Endorsement"...

The MO DMV made up the endorsement code based on "common language", and it does not reflect anything in the MO Code. DMV's are pretty notorious for making stuff up that has no basis in the law, so it should not surprise anyone that they use a term for the permit that doesn't actually exist anywhere in the Laws and Statutes of MO...
 

waapl01

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2010
Messages
49
Location
Virginia Beach, Virginia, United States
Ccw/chp/cc/oc?

Not entirely true...

The only state that puts the term CCW on their "permit" that I know of is MO, and they put the "endorsement" of "CCW" on their driver's licenses, because they don't issue seperate cards like most states.

However. NOWHERE in the Statutes of MO do they use the term "CCW" to describe their permit. In the statute is is a "Concealed Carry Endorsement"...

The MO DMV made up the endorsement code based on "common language", and it does not reflect anything in the MO Code. DMV's are pretty notorious for making stuff up that has no basis in the law, so it should not surprise anyone that they use a term for the permit that doesn't actually exist anywhere in the Laws and Statutes of MO...
So in Mo, if u don't have a drivers license u can't carry a weapon concealed?
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
http://ago.mo.gov/Concealed-Weapons/

http://dor.mo.gov/drivers/ccwlicense.php

http://dor.mo.gov/faq/drivers/ccw.php

It is not hard to find official government sites in MO that use the CCW abbreviation to refer to the document that allows concealed carry.

I just don't see why all the fuss. Every State (just about) uses a different abbreviation for their license or permit. If one understands what another is saying with his abbreviation, he should get over the fact that the abbreviation is not technically correct except in one State. It's not like the person using "CCW" to refer to their license/permit is displaying inordinate ignorance.
 

bomber

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
499
Location
, ,
A loophole is method of skirting the law that the lawmakers never intended. In this case, the lawmakers were trying to restrict gun merchants, folks in the business of buying and selling guns, not individuals. The law as it is does just that. That individuals may sell their privately-owned firearms, out of their home or at a gun show, is as the law intended. That such is what the law intended makes the ability of a private sale taking place at and during a gun show NOT a loophole.

The word is inapplicable.

thank you captain dictionary
 
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