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Thread: New Sign at Louisville Zoo

  1. #1
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    New Sign at Louisville Zoo

    Hey guys, its been a while since i posted here, but wanted to bring up the new sign posted at the Louisville Zoo. The old sign simply said no firearms based on a local ordinance... We even discussed it here, but I am pretty sure they got some nasty contacts about it and took it down. It has now been replaced with a new sign. This sign states that since school kids use the zoo, carry of a firearms is prohibited under KRS 527.070.

    For those who dont know, this is the KRS that prevents carriage on school grounds. Now am I nuts for thinking that this sign is no more legal than the last sign? If this is the case, then McDonalds could put up the same sign since these field trips sometimes result in a stop there for lunch. Oh wait, all public highways are now gun free zones under 527.070 because teh school bus uses that road. If I didnt have a 2 year old that loves the zoo, I wouldnt even care about this sign, but as long as she loves to see animals, I will continue to go, but would like to be armed as i go about my own business.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Hey Walker, glad to see you back on here, don't stay away so long next time. *LOL*

    No, you are not nuts for thinking this new sign is like the other. As I understand it, these signs are ONLY lawful and legal IF they are posted and used on school property exclusively. When they are used outside school property, I can't see that that's legally binding. Actually, it seems like we had a topic almost exactly like this one some time prior. If the zoo could be under 527.070, then a library could dare to claim that as well, being that more school children visit there than visit the zoo. *LOL*

    The ONLY way I can see this being remotely legal is if the school owns the zoo. *LOL*
    Last edited by neuroblades; 04-14-2011 at 10:41 AM.
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    The Michigan OC community is currently fighting a chain of libraries (in Detroit?) that are trying to ban OC because they claim they're a school because kids use the library & sometimes come there during school.

    Can't stop CC, of course, and even if the idiot judge somehow thinks that a library is a school people with MI priviledge permits can still carry there legally, and MI law says that gov't entities (including gov't owned/operated libraries) can't prohibit OC or CC.

    So it's not too far off to have someone there at the zoo thinking that since school kids come there it can be considered a school.
    If a lawyer can't explain the error of their thinking in private, it might have to go to court.
    Or maybe just people writing to their elected representatives...
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    Keep in mind ths is somewhat of an apples-to-oranges comparison...because I'm referring to Ohio rather than Kentucky here. The Cincinnati Zoo has some sort of official affiliation with the Cincinnati Public school system. They operate a "Zoological Academy" on the grounds of the Cincy Zoo. For that reason alone it apparently makes the place off-limits to carry, by Ohio's laws.

    Point being, is it possible that the Louisville Zoo has a similar learning center with affiliation to the school system there?

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    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    Keep in mind ths is somewhat of an apples-to-oranges comparison...because I'm referring to Ohio rather than Kentucky here. The Cincinnati Zoo has some sort of official affiliation with the Cincinnati Public school system. They operate a "Zoological Academy" on the grounds of the Cincy Zoo. For that reason alone it apparently makes the place off-limits to carry, by Ohio's laws.

    Point being, is it possible that the Louisville Zoo has a similar learning center with affiliation to the school system there?
    I don't believe the implication of a "school" on Cincinnat Zoo grounds means that it is a school. I know the sign at the Louisville Zoo is the stupidest thing I have heard of. I can not believe any County Attorney or Commonwealth Attorney would want to take someone to trial in Jefferson County with an arrest calling the Zoo a school. If they do try to enforce it, someone is going to hit the Commonwealth lottery.
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    Who could I write to express my concern over the sign?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
    I can not believe any County Attorney or Commonwealth Attorney would want to take someone to trial in Jefferson County with an arrest calling the Zoo a school.
    Why not? Here in COMMIEfornia, we call OUR public zoos "public schools!"

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    Perhaps it is fate that zoo rule # 13 reads:

    #13 Firearms and other weapons are not allowed. Off-duty police are required to identify themselves at the Administration Office upon entry.

    I think I'll send them a letter expressing my regret at having to cross off their zoo as a place to visit and spend my money, due entirely to their anti-firearms policy.

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    ... in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field, or any other property owned, used, or operated by any board of education, school, board of trustees, regents, or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution....

    This comes straight from KRS 527.070, so i guess to the letter of the law the sign is legal because if someone from the board of education visits that zoo then he/she uses it.

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    Regular Member Thos.Jefferson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    ... in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field, or any other property owned, used, or operated by any board of education, school, board of trustees, regents, or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution....

    This comes straight from KRS 527.070, so i guess to the letter of the law the sign is legal because if someone from the board of education visits that zoo then he/she uses it.
    Yes they "use" the zoo but not for "administration" which seems to be the key word.

    I put in my 2 cents worth for all the good it will do. Kind of anxious to see what the response will be.
    Last edited by Thos.Jefferson; 04-15-2011 at 03:40 AM. Reason: content
    He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent which will reach to himself. -- Thomas Paine (1737--1809), Dissertation on First Principles of Government, 1795

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    I am no english major but I think "directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution" could be a person or group of people. I think that last part of the sentence can just define "directors"

    Like I said I am no english major and only lawyers make law anymore. And they want to keep you guessing.

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    walkeraviator:

    The Louisville Zoo DOES NOT Qualify as a School, under either Kentucky Law or Federal Law.

    An Area Designated as a Zoo should NOT Merely become a School, Solely because Someone Claims it to be, as that would be Political Alchemy.

    Therefore, Open Carry of a Firearm on Louisville City Property would be Legal, and Preempted, under KRS 65.870.

    aadvark

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    I suppose I will start by writing to the Zoo first. But I think I will need help constructing a letter that is non threatening in the least bit. Any advice?

    I have a feeling they arent going to budge until someone comes out and defines a "school" very clearly and excludes the zoo in bold letters... If I hit the lottery, i would walk in there open carry and pay the lawayers to put an end to this. But since i am a workin man I feel there is nothing i can actually do to get them to stop violating my rights.
    Last edited by Walkeraviator; 04-16-2011 at 10:51 AM.

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    Regular Member KRM59's Avatar
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    Wrote my 2 cents to the Zoo

    For what good it does i did e-mail the Zoo and used there own KRS quote as my argument that there sign and rule violate state law. Now the waiting game begins.
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    Regular Member Thos.Jefferson's Avatar
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    No Response

    I sent an e-mail to the zoo on the 14th of April. At the conclusion of the process their site promptly thanked me and assured that I would receive a response within 2 working days. As of today still no response? Go figure.
    He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent which will reach to himself. -- Thomas Paine (1737--1809), Dissertation on First Principles of Government, 1795

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    Any case law or AG opinion on what "used by a school means"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Any case law or AG opinion on what "used by a school means"?
    I sent an e-mail to the Jefferson County Attorney, and here is what I received in response,

    "Public, parochial and private schools in the community use the
    facilities of the Louisville Zoo regularly in their educational
    curriculua.



    Bill Patteson
    Communications Director
    Office of Mike O'Connell
    Jefferson County Attorney"

    I realize our schools are zoos, but hadn't realized it went both ways...

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    I would thank them for clarifying the matter and since schools only USE zoos and not OWN them that you'll go ahead and carry your gun.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by langzaiguy View Post
    I would thank them for clarifying the matter and since schools only USE zoos and not OWN them that you'll go ahead and carry your gun.
    I agree!
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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    That sign makes less sense that the last one, but they have upped the anti. Now, in order to challenge this sign you risk a felony charge. Violation of the previous sign was only a misdemeanor. Of course, neither charge would stick, if you spend the money to fight it. This is pure intimidation. The Louisville Metro government is saying, "even though we know it violates state law, we will force you to obey our wishes or pay a large sum of money to enjoy you rights."
    You are right Gutshot. We got over that issue in Virginia by getting a new section added to the Virginia preemption law that could make the city/county liable for your costs if they were found to be in violation of the preemption law. Seems to work well here in Virginia.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    lol'd

    I like how the letter made it seem they didn't know that sign was full of crap from the start.

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    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    http://kc3blog.blogspot.com/
    It's right in the center there. You can click on it to enlarge it.

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    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    Anyone see the letter from KC3. I would like to read it.
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  24. #24
    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    I'd love to see it too, hotrod.
    Gutshot, as you may remember, I have not been a fan of KC3 in the past few years. After this and if it is as it appears, I will not only withdraw my remarks and apologize, but also donate cash to the organization. Hope they post the letter and prove me to be an idiot for past comments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    If any of you missed this post of mine, go back and read it and you'll see KC3 has taken a new more agressive position and it appears they have expanded their field to include all firearms no matter how they are carried.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...24-The-new-kc3
    Looks like I have a local group to join and donate to now. Kudos to KC3.

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