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Thread: Rubber bullet questions

  1. #1
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    Rubber bullet questions

    Not sure where to post so I went with General. I am thinking about rubber bullets so I'll share my story and ask the questions.

    A couple days ago I was involved in a incident that changed my "I'll never use this thing" thought process. I was outside smoking when my new/strange cops been there a few times neighbors start with the usually comical yelling. Now after a few moments I hear that one of the 2 women in the house was hit in the nose and bleeding, shortly after hearing one scream "put down the knife." As fast as I start thinking this is more than usual and a cop-call needs to be made the mother comes running out and sreams at me to help her because her son is cutting himself up. Having heard that he sometimes hits his girlfriend who is still up there with him, my mind is racing with the possibilities. So as I walk near I call 911 and get the cops on the way. Standing outside by the door yelling at the neighborhood kids gathering too young and too close to a house with a crazyman with a knife to go home. By the time I finish with the operator the mother had returned up the stairs (townhouse) so I listen not knowing how homicidal this kid (15-19) could be. As the mother informs him the cops are on the way he states his desire to get them to shoot him. Naturally I stay far enough away to avoid this kind of situation but I stay close enough in case the women start getting hacked up. Good news is they seem (they close the door at some point) to get him calmed down and the girlfriend drives him away shortly before the cops arrive.

    My new intrest in something non-lethal is based on this event as I realize if something in this middle-gray area occurs and doesn't work out "well" it may be the kind of moment when killing someone is not going to look good, nor scare the homicidal/suicidal type person to back down requiring action. So I would love to get any info/ resources on some non-lethal rounds like rubber bullets and anything I may not know about and how effective they are, and also what is the actual risk of killing the person when you shoot something like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LethalMouse View Post
    Not sure where to post so I went with General. I am thinking about rubber bullets so I'll share my story and ask the questions.

    A couple days ago I was involved in a incident that changed my "I'll never use this thing" thought process. I was outside smoking when my new/strange cops been there a few times neighbors start with the usually comical yelling. Now after a few moments I hear that one of the 2 women in the house was hit in the nose and bleeding, shortly after hearing one scream "put down the knife." As fast as I start thinking this is more than usual and a cop-call needs to be made the mother comes running out and sreams at me to help her because her son is cutting himself up. Having heard that he sometimes hits his girlfriend who is still up there with him, my mind is racing with the possibilities. So as I walk near I call 911 and get the cops on the way. Standing outside by the door yelling at the neighborhood kids gathering too young and too close to a house with a crazyman with a knife to go home. By the time I finish with the operator the mother had returned up the stairs (townhouse) so I listen not knowing how homicidal this kid (15-19) could be. As the mother informs him the cops are on the way he states his desire to get them to shoot him. Naturally I stay far enough away to avoid this kind of situation but I stay close enough in case the women start getting hacked up. Good news is they seem (they close the door at some point) to get him calmed down and the girlfriend drives him away shortly before the cops arrive.

    My new intrest in something non-lethal is based on this event as I realize if something in this middle-gray area occurs and doesn't work out "well" it may be the kind of moment when killing someone is not going to look good, nor scare the homicidal/suicidal type person to back down requiring action. So I would love to get any info/ resources on some non-lethal rounds like rubber bullets and anything I may not know about and how effective they are, and also what is the actual risk of killing the person when you shoot something like that.
    Huh?

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    Just let the cops do their job. If you must draw your firearm you better be in fear of serious injury it death and that fear equates to deadly force. If you want less than lethal buy some mace or a personal tazer

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    Its too easy to get caught up in something where the helper citizen ends up getting sued by the family. "John Neighborly didn't need to shoot him! He was a good kid. Yes, he gestured with the knife, but he didn't mean it."

    I don't know that I would become the surrogate mental health system or surrogate cop by getting into rubber ammo. It would be inviting myself into what may be a very messy situation in that family's lives.

    Also, I'd be super-cautious. The unbalanced person has expressed the desire for cops to shoot him. Just great. What if he finds out the neighbor has a gun and one day decides on suicide-by-neighbor instead of suicide-by-cop?

    While the desire to help speaks well of the OPer's character, there is no law saying one must help. Apparently the women know the situation, know the risks, and have elected to stay in the situation. If part of their game plan is to rely on or demand help from innocent third parties--only when things become violent and genuinely dangerous--they are demanding far too much of their fellow man.

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    Your gun is a defensive weapon for your and your family's safety. It is admirable that you want to help but you should have also learned a valuable lesson right there. The mother comes out yelling for you to call the cops and what happens, before they get there the sister has him in a car and gone. Forget about rubber bullets, mace, pepper spray, tazers or anything close to that when dealing with that family unless they attack you. Call the cops and let them handle that mess. Sadly it is typical of domestic disputes and why cops hate them worse than any other call. If something happens and you are involved do you think that the family is going to back you one bit. Imagine what the story from the family would have been if the cops had gotten there in time and carried out the suicide by cop wish.

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    Regular Member bom1911's Avatar
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    Yup. Call the cops, go inside your place and lock the door. Let the professionals handle the mental family.

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    I was told, many, many years ago, that police hate to get called to any type of domestic violence call as there is a high probability of the "victim" turning on the officer trying to help. My Dad was the one who told me and, since then, I've had several police officers confirm his wisdom.

    OP did very well, in my opinion, by calling 911, chasing the neighborhood kids away from the danger, and not getting more involved. While his question is a legitimate one and his motives are good, I would very strongly advise both against the rubber bullets (can you even buy such?) and intervening in a situation that is not a direct threat to you and yours.

    The only exception I would make to the intervention would be if someone were being harmed in my direct view and were in danger of their life. No way would I enter someone else's home as I do not have the training that a police officer can be presumed to have.

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    There are several option regarding LTL(Less than Lethal) ammunition

    Flashbang shotshells(I use them in my shotgun in case of a break in)
    http://www.securityprousa.com/bothba12ga.html


    Rubber rocket
    http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/lesslethalammo.html

    Specialized violent defense sprayers
    ADMIN NOTE: Guardian Self Defense has asked not to be linked from here


    But keep in mind that using any of these items can land you in court. You will have to explain(get this...) why you drew a lethal device(barring your LTL device is for that purpose only) and used LTL rounds. I have heard it could turn into torture charges. Not 100% on that though.
    Last edited by John Pierce; 06-25-2014 at 04:20 PM.
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    Regular Member Sc0tt's Avatar
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    I always carry a LTL option on me. Tazer, Perperspray, night stick, somthing. I mostly carry it becuase I read that story about the attempted gun grab and it got my attention. I like to have an option between verbal and lethal.
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    LTL rounds present an interesting argument. One of the problems is that the person holding the gun knows it is loaded with LTL rounds. The person looking down the barrel does not.

    The way my state works, we have "force". And we have levels of force. And at the top of the levels of force is deadly force. Certain crimes -- like forcible entry into a dwelling or vehicle or kidnapping -- allow ANY level of force to be used according to the lawful occupant's discretion. However, brandishing a firearm is generally considered a threat of deadly force. This is akin to strapping an automatic BB gun to a pistol or short-barreled rifle (SBR). Holding this combination, one can deal with any threat. If the person is unarmed, you can annoy the bonkers out of them with the BB pistol. If the person is armed, you have a loaded gun in your hands. However, for a less than lethal threat, it becomes brandishing lethal force when use of lethal force is not excused or authorized.

    It is also dangerous to use LTL rounds. It is akin to bringing a knife to a gunfight. One doesn't want to have to unload and reload very quickly if/when the situation escalates (because it looked like you went lethal on the other person and they thought they had a reason to defend themselves).
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    Firearms, regardless of the load, will be seen as lethal force under the law. Unloaded firearms, mockups, blanks, rubber bullets, warning shots, and any other non-lethal use of a firearm is dangerous. It carries all the downside of lethal force without the benefit: lethality!

    Don't even run the risk of bringing rubber bullets to a lead-bullet fight!

    On edit: Kirb, I read your post after posting this. It sounds like you and I are on the same page, including the use of an analogy about weapons brought to a fight!
    Last edited by eye95; 04-18-2011 at 11:07 AM.

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    I would make sure no one else got hurt/involved, and leave my weapons at home and call 911.

    If you ended up absolutely must get involved to protect someone else, bean-bags in a shotgun will knock someone down without killing them (unless you are too close)...but only if he came over to my house and was threatening me or someone in my care.

    From what you wrote it sounds more like he was trying to hurt himself, not someone else, in which case I would definately stay well away from the conflict.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    SNIP From what you wrote it sounds more like he was trying to hurt himself, not someone else, in which case I would definately stay well away from the conflict.
    This reminds me of a good point I came across a few years ago. Massad Ayoob, in a couple of his writings, points out that someone who is suicidal is by definition homicidal.

    The reason he points this out is that some would-be suicides have turned on their rescuer and tried to kill them. Ayoob cites a case where one would-be suicide actually shifted his anger from himself to the responding cops, took one cop's gun and killed her, and then gave the other cop a real fight for his life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Firearms, regardless of the load, will be seen as lethal force under the law. Unloaded firearms, mockups, blanks, rubber bullets, warning shots, and any other non-lethal use of a firearm is dangerous. It carries all the downside of lethal force without the benefit: lethality!

    Don't even run the risk of bringing rubber bullets to a lead-bullet fight!

    On edit: Kirb, I read your post after posting this. It sounds like you and I are on the same page, including the use of an analogy about weapons brought to a fight!
    I completely agree. If you want something LTL look into getting something like the taser c2.It just is not a good idea to put LTL ammo in an otherwise very lethal gun. Accidents happen, people sue.
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    LEGAL NOTICE: I am not a lawyer, no content in the above post should considered legal advice

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    if you want to be a cop so bad, why don't you just join up?

    if it were me, i'd let the cops deal with it. they want the recognition for putting their lives on the line, give them the chance to actually do it.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by PT111 View Post
    Your gun is a defensive weapon for your and your family's safety. It is admirable that you want to help but you should have also learned a valuable lesson right there. The mother comes out yelling for you to call the cops and what happens, before they get there the sister has him in a car and gone. Forget about rubber bullets, mace, pepper spray, tazers or anything close to that when dealing with that family unless they attack you. Call the cops and let them handle that mess. Sadly it is typical of domestic disputes and why cops hate them worse than any other call. If something happens and you are involved do you think that the family is going to back you one bit. Imagine what the story from the family would have been if the cops had gotten there in time and carried out the suicide by cop wish.
    PT and Citizen hit it on the head. Call the cops. What the hell do we pay them for if they can't handle this type of situation? If the kid really wants to die you don't want to be anywhere near the venue he chooses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    PT and Citizen hit it on the head. Call the cops. What the hell do we pay them for if they can't handle this type of situation? If the kid really wants to die you don't want to be anywhere near the venue he chooses.
    Sometimes I wonder that same question. But not just for the OPs scenario. I see lots of good cops, and then I see the ones that flip their lights on just to get through an intersection to stop at Mcd's for lunch...
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    Quote Originally Posted by LethalMouse View Post
    Not sure where to post so I went with General. I am thinking about rubber bullets so I'll share my story and ask the questions.

    A couple days ago I was involved in a incident that changed my "I'll never use this thing" thought process. I was outside smoking when my new/strange cops been there a few times neighbors start with the usually comical yelling. Now after a few moments I hear that one of the 2 women in the house was hit in the nose and bleeding, shortly after hearing one scream "put down the knife." As fast as I start thinking this is more than usual and a cop-call needs to be made the mother comes running out and sreams at me to help her because her son is cutting himself up. Having heard that he sometimes hits his girlfriend who is still up there with him, my mind is racing with the possibilities. So as I walk near I call 911 and get the cops on the way. Standing outside by the door yelling at the neighborhood kids gathering too young and too close to a house with a crazyman with a knife to go home. By the time I finish with the operator the mother had returned up the stairs (townhouse) so I listen not knowing how homicidal this kid (15-19) could be. As the mother informs him the cops are on the way he states his desire to get them to shoot him. Naturally I stay far enough away to avoid this kind of situation but I stay close enough in case the women start getting hacked up. Good news is they seem (they close the door at some point) to get him calmed down and the girlfriend drives him away shortly before the cops arrive.

    My new intrest in something non-lethal is based on this event as I realize if something in this middle-gray area occurs and doesn't work out "well" it may be the kind of moment when killing someone is not going to look good, nor scare the homicidal/suicidal type person to back down requiring action. So I would love to get any info/ resources on some non-lethal rounds like rubber bullets and anything I may not know about and how effective they are, and also what is the actual risk of killing the person when you shoot something like that.
    FORGET RUBBER BULLETS!!!! At reasonable pistol ranges they can penetrate enough to be lethal.
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