Carry/Home Defense Gun

"I personally started looking for higher capacity 45's when I read stories of people being shot 22 times before going down"

Woah, full-stop, Id like to see a single documented case of ANYONE taking more than 3-4 .45 acp hits before going down. Ever.
9mm/.40, thousands of documented shootings requiring 10+ - 20+ shots,are out there. (just ask any PD) But .45? Never heard of such a thing. That would be one tough cookie..

hvtopiwala said:

so i went to shoot straight today, and tried a few guns out...i didnt like the trigger pull at all on the FNP-45 so that is out of the question....they didnt have any double stack Para's in stock, but i did mess a few Kimbers and i loved the trigger pull. I might just have to suck up only being able to carry 7 rounds, but w/e lol. ill have to think about this one.

Would you guys carry a 1911 as your regular carry gun or would you prefer something with more rounds in it?

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Ive carried 1911 as primary carry a lot in yrs. past, both in and out of the Army. Wouldnt hesitate to do so again. Only reason Im not currently is due to some nerve damage and tendinitis on my "strong" hand, which makes it difficult to propertly/fully depress the grip safety sometimes.So, Id just rather take the Murphy factor out of the equation..

j4l said:

"I personally started looking for higher capacity 45's when I read stories of people being shot 22 times before going down"

Woah, full-stop, Id like to see a single documented case of ANYONE taking more than 3-4 .45 acp hits before going down. Ever.
9mm/.40, thousands of documented shootings requiring 10+ - 20+ shots,are out there. (just ask any PD) But .45? Never heard of such a thing. That would be one tough cookie..

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The one example was word of mouth from a retired police officer that taught my Concealed Handgun class. His example was of a guy high on PCP being shot something like 47 times before he stopped attacking. The last bullet severed his spinal cord which finally made him stop. Since it was a police shooting I am guessing 9mm and or 40S&W.

The second example was a show I saw where they reenacted a police officer who tried to ID a person sitting in a car across from a jewelry store. His autopsy showed no sign of alcohol or drugs and it still took 22 hits with 40S&W from the police officer to bring him down. The police officer was wounded several times as they chased each other around the cars shooting. I can't remember where I saw this and did a search of youtube but don't see the exact one I remember.

In either case 45acp isn't a magic bullet where one shot will drop him. Expect a couple to several shots needed to stop an individual. Talking to different police (reading, seeing videos of others) my general impression is that most police departments are moving away from 9mm toward 40S&W because they are getting tired of shooting the perp 4-5 times before he notices.

If you read the self defense threads, or armed citizen column in the Rifleman it is common for the bullet wounded attacker to drive themselves to the hospital. So even if they are hit the higher percent (again in my opinion) aren't fatal. Shot placement is key but in a self defense situation, being taken off guard, adreniline and the fact that the attacker isn't standing still while you line up the sights, shot placement can be more of a luck thing for most but the very well trained.

I dont disagree, but you made my point for me= thousands of documented shooting cases out there where both 9mm and .40 have proven to need a lot of rounds to end things. I've still yet to see a single documented case of anyone- regardless of mental or physical state, take more than 3-4 hits from a .45. Ever.


Not saying its a magic-bullet, nor am I attempting to re-ignite the .45 vs 9/.40 thing. Nothing to debate on that one, really,as actual street and battle-field results have decided that for all of us, long ago.

Shot placement IS king, however a lot of the documented results of 9/.40 have shown multiple "kill zone" hits, with little to no result, as well as multiple superficial hits.

Yes I will agree that there was a number of rounds averaged between 2-5 shots per incident. My opinion is that Murphy's law and corollary will hit if I am ever involved in an incident. (Law: Whatever can go wrong will go wrong. Corollary: At the worst possible time)

Then there is the case of multiple attackers. Here in Virginia a member posted a chart of the attacks in Norfolk over the month. They ranged from 1-6 attackers at once with the average being 2-3. So again with Mr. Murphy poking his ugly head into my business, I want to have 5*6=30 rounds available. Typically when I carry, my OC gun has 12+1, my BUG has 6+1 and my spare mag has 8. So 28 rounds on me makes me feel safer than walking around with less.

I will admit though that if you carry any gun with any amount of ammunition, you are better off than 90% of the populous. That is why I recommend getting any gun that you like as long as you will carry it and train with it. We will never know how many attacks were avoided because they thought/knew the potential victim had a gun.

One other note from the CHP class I took: LEO miss 50-80% of the time in shootings. So of the 5 shots you take you may hit 1-2 if you follow that real life statistic.

Michigander said:

When WE Fairbairn was working with the Shanghai police department nearly 100 years ago, he noted that a considerable number of officers had died from criminal gunfire while failing to deactivate the safety on their Browning handguns, which if I remember right were 1908's and 1911's. He made the move to pin the pistols thumb safeties off and decided that the grip safety was plenty for a SAO safety feature, which is exactly what I decided was the correct strategy for Browning handguns many years before I ever heard of this.

I'd also point out that I know several CPL instructors, and among the re-occurring themes is students fumbling on their thumb safeties during drills. For someone who is totally practiced and confident in their sidearm, perhaps this isn't an issue. For someone who needs to seek the help of a forum to pick their handgun, it very well might be.

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That is one of the primary reasons why I have been stalling on purchasing two Para P-14s, I can totally see myself forgetting to flick the thumb safety off.

Cons:

1) Manual thumb safety

2) Single action only

3) Tool needed to dissemble for cleaning



Someone in this thread mentioned that Springfield makes a hi-capacity 1911 45 ACP can someone please tell me the exact model name?

I want a 1911 with a 5in barrel, 45 ACP, SA/DA, hi-cap 13+1 or better, ambidextrous magazine release, ambidextrous decocker, no manual safeties (the grip safety is plenty enough)

DevinWKuska said:

The upside to a shotgun vs handgun for home defense (besides wall penetration) is that simply racking the gauge is usually enough to send BGs back out where they just came in. Just my $.02

My appologies for mentioning LGs but I am concerned for the OPs neighbors:uhoh:. But if your stuck on getting a HG... FN tactical, its pre-threaded for suppressors. You can put him down long before he realizes whats going on.

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If you are racking the shotgun where the BG can hear it you are way behind the curve and you lost your tactical advantage. If he was going to enter your house with a gun it would be drawn, so you NEED the jump on him any way you can.

And the suppressor is really going to make it that quite? Its about like a door slamming, that is a very noticeable noise within a house. Wikipedia relates it to about the noise level of a jackhammer. Its not the quite hiss that Bond leads you to believe. You, sir, need to stop spreading misinformation that can potentially get someone hurt or killed.

There's also this assumption that hearing a shotgun rack is going to scare away the things that go bump in the night. Maybe sometimes, but are you willing to count on always?
If the junkie has already made the decision on his part to break into and enter your occupied place, it's not unreasonable to "assume" that it may well take a bit more than the sound of a shotgun racking to deter him or run him off. Consider also, that the sound merely points out your general location-usually in the dark- to a person who is likely already locked and loaded..expect incomming shortly thereafter.

cmdr_iceman71 said:

That is one of the primary reasons why I have been stalling on purchasing two Para P-14s, I can totally see myself forgetting to flick the thumb safety off.

Cons:

1) Manual thumb safety
2) Single action only
3) Tool needed to dissemble for cleaning

Someone in this thread mentioned that Springfield makes a hi-capacity 1911 45 ACP can someone please tell me the exact model name?

I want a 1911 with a 5in barrel, 45 ACP, SA/DA, hi-cap 13+1 or better, ambidextrous magazine release, ambidextrous decocker, no manual safeties (the grip safety is plenty enough)

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http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=11

That is a Springfield hi capacity 13 round 1911. I prefer the features of their Loaded series. So it doesn't have all the things you want. I don't know of a SA/DA 1911 but there may be one out there. Para has the LDA trigger which may or may not be more what you want. Very few guns in general have ambi decocker, mag release.

A single action trigger is fine, you just carry it cocked and locked. The 1911 isn't like a cowboy action SA revolver where you have to cock the hammer each shot. The slide/recoil cocks the hammer for you. It is no different than the 2nd shot of a DA/SA gun where after the first shot the gun puts itself into SA for you.

Many like DA part of the DA/SA thinking that that first trigger pull is harder and won't cause you to accidentally discharge while drawing/picking up your gun under duress. The thumb safety on the 1911 is kind of like that in it is safe until you choose to put it off.

09jisaac said:

If you are racking the shotgun where the BG can hear it you are way behind the curve and you lost your tactical advantage. If he was going to enter your house with a gun it would be drawn, so you NEED the jump on him any way you can.

And the suppressor is really going to make it that quite? Its about like a door slamming, that is a very noticeable noise within a house. Wikipedia relates it to about the noise level of a jackhammer. Its not the quite hiss that Bond leads you to believe. You, sir, need to stop spreading misinformation that can potentially get someone hurt or killed.

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Yes I have said it before that the racking of a pump shotgun doesn't empty the bowels of every bad guy within a quarter mile of your house. I carry 00 buck shot chambered and the only warning a home invader will receive that something is amiss is that tunnel of white light opening up in front of them as their stay here on this earth has come to an end.

A suppressor will reduce the sound to the point it won't damage your hearing. Dry it is still very loud, wet it can be compared to someone coughing moderately.

One use I think the suppressor will be great for is when the sh1t hits the fan and civilization runs amok. Noise of gunfire draws attention so the suppressor will allow you to dispatch any zombies in the area without drawing more hungry brain-eating zombies towards you.

j4l said:

I've still yet to see a single documented case of anyone- regardless of mental or physical state, take more than 3-4 hits from a .45. Ever. .

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I know of a case which isn't documented, at least not in a way linked to on line. Also, for clarity, this is hear say, or maybe I should call it "read say". Specifically, a retired cop on another forum who I have come over the years to put a lot of trust in, claims that a friend of his who is still a cop shot an armed felon with 9 rounds of full power defensive .45 HP's, which didn't stop the felon. According to the story, the cop fetched his AR from his trunk, which did stop the felon.

cmdr_iceman71 said:

That is one of the primary reasons why I have been stalling on purchasing two Para P-14s, I can totally see myself forgetting to flick the thumb safety off.

Cons:

1) Manual thumb safety

2) Single action only

3) Tool needed to dissemble for cleaning
)

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It's like I've told ya before. You should cross over to Glocks.

I personally was looking into a berretta 90 two (not the 92fsz) to fit those roles, though my 870 is my hd gun. Apparently its an upgraded 92, differences include a rail mount, switchable grips, a futureistic looking grip pattern, and a recoil buffer but other than that its the same gun. Chambered in both 9 and .40. My only issue was be finding a holster, the rail made it unable to fit 92 holsters. I was a day from ordering when i ran into monetary issues.

pt145 has safety and 10+1 45acp.

hvtopiwala said:

theres no such thing as double stack 1911 is there? cuz that would be the EXACT pistol im looking for lol

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www.para-usa.com has a p14, 14+1 of 45acp.

I second the recommendations on the CZ and the Kimbers ... I have the CZ 75B in 9mm and the Kimber UCII in .45 and both are fine machines ...

As for the thumb safety, practice, practice, practice ... it is your responsibility to know how to operate the firearm you carry. I generally carry my SA EMP 9mm for around town, and carry the Kimber for going into the metro, and both have an ambi thumb safety and it is no delay for me to pull, thumb, acquire target and shoot. It wasn't that way when I started, but I practiced, practiced, practiced until it was second nature under certified training. DA/SA, well, I carry magazines at capacity with one in the pipe as I don't want to have to rack before I shoot (feel for the folks in CA), so the issue is moot. Why would you not want to have the gun cocked, locked and ready to roll?

Ok, as a new carrier, I can see how you might be a little hesitant about one in the pipe. GET OVER IT or don't carry. I didn't get over it until after my first incident and that actually caused me legal problems. Here's the scenario, you and GF are walking to the car after the movie and you have to cross through a spot with very low light. You see a shadow at the end of the building and you realize that your gun does not have a round in the chamber. In anticipation of MAYBE needing to defend yourself, you quietly take your gun out of the holster and rack a round fully intending to replace the gun in the holster without waving it at anyone or anything. But, someone hears you rack the round and starts yelling, "He's got a gun" and there you go, having to explain to the cops why you racked a round that no one saw you do, but some yokel heard you do. Next thing you know, the DA is considering which of 4 felonies to charge you with. So, take my experience and GET OVER IT and carry one in the chamber!

As for hi-capacity or not, well, after tactical training, I can empty a mag and have the next one in the gun and empty that one and the next one all in the 8 and 10 ring under 60 seconds (in my case, well under ) and I did it in two different classes, once with the .45 (7 rd mags +1) and the SA 9mm (9 rd mags +1).

What has not been mentioned is that statistically, most shootings/gunfights take less than 30 seconds from start to finish. I am not sure about the stats with multiple assailants, but probably not much longer.

Most of all, choose a gun that feels good in your hand, train with it, then take the next step in your gun acquisition syndrome :lol: Professional training is a great way to get the practice and handling familiarity you need, and it is a great place to meet great folks! They all share your passion for guns.

hvtopiwala said:

Im looking for a good carry and home defense gun that is DA/SA, has safetys, and is double stack lol...

ideally a merger of a 1911 and a Glock would be the preferred gun i like the sigs, but they didnt have a thumb safety which is what im really looking for. any suggestions???

RELIABILITY is key as well.

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Can't you put a trigger safety on a GLOCK???

WantsToCarry said:

I always thought if Papa 1911 had a baby with momma glock, it would come out a Springfield XD. Just my thought tho.

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+1 mine is always within arms reach, no safety to mess with 13 rounds of .45, and if that doesn't do it I can at least put some suppresive rounds out and get my shotgun

09jisaac said:

And the suppressor is really going to make it that quite? Its about like a door slamming, that is a very noticeable noise within a house. Wikipedia relates it to about the noise level of a jackhammer. Its not the quite hiss that Bond leads you to believe. You, sir, need to stop spreading misinformation that can potentially get someone hurt or killed.

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I just want to clarify for everyone here that silencers are not even close to the noise level of a jack hammer. If I had to describe it, I would say your average silencer with supersonic rounds sounds more like clapping 2 2x4's together. We cross trained with SF sometimes and I remember shooting with one of their guys that was using a silencer quieter than that. If your using subsonic ammo, depending on the silencer and the gun it can be pretty quiet.

The reason I bring this up is silencers can bring 2 tactical advantages to home defense. Not so much the element of surprise, but more about not blinding you from muzzle flash at night or compromising your hearing. Anyone who has shot any gun in an enclosed space with no hearing protection will tell you that it is hard to hear anything within a normal range for the rest of the day after that. I would like to be able to hear any other possible threats moving around in the house as it would probably be dark and I would need to use my sense of hearing to pick up on things like that. Also, I would not like to compromise my night vision so as I would be able to see any additional threats in the dark.