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Thread: OC at EMU......?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Scooter's Avatar
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    OC at EMU......?

    Have been invited to a movie screening at the Student Center at EMU. I have a CPL, I am not a student there: okay to OC? The EMU website only mentions students not being able to have firearms on campus.

    What say you?

  2. #2
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
    Have been invited to a movie screening at the Student Center at EMU. I have a CPL, I am not a student there: okay to OC? The EMU website only mentions students not being able to have firearms on campus.

    What say you?
    Whether you have a CPL or not is irrevelant from what I can tell (if you're ocing). If your paying for the event and they don't allow OC then simply leave and don't allow them to get your money. If its something you really want to go to for whatever reason I'd suggest CC, but its all up to you. This is all assuming you are 100% legal on their campus. If the studet center isn't a dorm or classroom building ids why you can CC.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  3. #3
    Regular Member Scooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Whether you have a CPL or not is irrevelant from what I can tell (if you're ocing). If your paying for the event and they don't allow OC then simply leave and don't allow them to get your money. If its something you really want to go to for whatever reason I'd suggest CC, but its all up to you. This is all assuming you are 100% legal on their campus. If the studet center isn't a dorm or classroom building ids why you can CC.
    I had thought a University was a PFZ therefore requiring OC with a CPL....I'll have to research it....
    The event is free, I was invited by some of my filmmaker friends who have their films showing.

    EDIT TO ADD:
    Just checked my CPL card; I will not be in a classroom or dorm at EMU so I am good to go.
    Last edited by Scooter; 04-19-2011 at 02:15 PM.

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    Regular Member quarter horseman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Whether you have a CPL or not is irrevelant from what I can tell (if you're ocing). If your paying for the event and they don't allow OC then simply leave and don't allow them to get your money. If its something you really want to go to for whatever reason I'd suggest CC, but its all up to you. This is all assuming you are 100% legal on their campus. If the studet center isn't a dorm or classroom building ids why you can CC.
    xman please be a little more clear, I'm confused. Did you just say someone can cc in a school? Did I miss a new law cause I dont remember that one passing not yet anyway.

    nevermind The Q answered it, thanks Q
    Last edited by quarter horseman; 04-19-2011 at 02:27 PM. Reason: nevermind

  5. #5
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Michigan Universities, such as EMU, are not covered under preemption AND have the ability to create their own laws. Research EMU ordinances and see if they have a firearm ordinance. I'll bet they do.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Scooter's Avatar
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    From A2.com
    "The University of Michigan, Eastern Michigan University and Washtenaw Community College all have ordinances barring firearms from campus, except for those carried by campus police."

    grrrrrr....grumble,grumble...

  7. #7
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
    From A2.com
    "The University of Michigan, Eastern Michigan University and Washtenaw Community College all have ordinances barring firearms from campus, except for those carried by campus police."

    grrrrrr....grumble,grumble...
    Did it mention any other schools?
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  8. #8
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Did it mention any other schools?
    Many community colleges are in the same boat. Ex: Lansing CC.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  9. #9
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Why not read the actual "Rule" instead of referring to a general statement on A2.com? There are always exceptions...

    http://www.emich.edu/policies/chapter9/9-4_policy.pdf

    Looks like cc (or oc), if they found out, MIGHT get you a "Hey friend, you have to leave..." lol As long as the place isn't "An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more", if cc, that is.

    ETA: "The Auditorium, with a capacity of 250, is a perfect space for concerts, movies and presentations."

    Is it being held here? http://www.emich.edu/studentcenter/e...nt-spaces.html
    Last edited by DrTodd; 04-19-2011 at 09:32 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Do they hold any film related classes in the theater? Is so it's a classroom.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 04-20-2011 at 02:28 AM.
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  11. #11
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    My geology class went out on work-sites... was that a classroom?

    I don't think the fact that it is used for instruction every now and then would qualify it as a classroom... much like CADL claiming they are a "school" because children may be in the library to do some reading... Or, even better, don't carry at various businesses because there might be a HS student who is placed there through a high-school level vocational program.
    If the logic were taken to an extreme, then NO PLACE would be a place where one could cc by virtue of having possibly been used as a place where instruction MAY have taken place. Just sayin'...
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    I agree with you but I think a University/College would not. I think they would push the classroom angle if a room on campus was used for scheduled classes...even if only occasionally.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Michigan Universities, such as EMU, are not covered under preemption AND have the ability to create their own laws. Research EMU ordinances and see if they have a firearm ordinance. I'll bet they do.
    This needs more research. Most certainly the schools chartered under the Michigan Consititution (Wayne State, U of M and MSU) can create their own 'ordinances'. Other schools, I'm not so sure. They may have 'policies', but these generally apply only to employees and students, as their only recourse is dismissal or expulsion. Our local community college, KVCC (Kalamazoo Valley Community College) had an ordinance covering possession of a firearm adopted years ago by Texas Township. After pointing our the illegality and unenforceability of such an ordinance (oh yea, 30 emails, 9 months and 2 appearances at Township meetings), the ordinance was removed. They recognized that they did not have the statutory authority to enact, let alone enforce, such an ordinance.

    So while the three Constitutional Universities are not covered under preemption, I'm much less clear that this holds true for all public universities and colleges. Private property rights enable any private property owner to control behavior on their private premises.

    Carry on

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmlefler View Post
    This needs more research. Most certainly the schools chartered under the Michigan Consititution (Wayne State, U of M and MSU) can create their own 'ordinances'. Other schools, I'm not so sure. They may have 'policies', but these generally apply only to employees and students, as their only recourse is dismissal or expulsion. Our local community college, KVCC (Kalamazoo Valley Community College) had an ordinance covering possession of a firearm adopted years ago by Texas Township. After pointing our the illegality and unenforceability of such an ordinance (oh yea, 30 emails, 9 months and 2 appearances at Township meetings), the ordinance was removed. They recognized that they did not have the statutory authority to enact, let alone enforce, such an ordinance.

    So while the three Constitutional Universities are not covered under preemption, I'm much less clear that this holds true for all public universities and colleges. Private property rights enable any private property owner to control behavior on their private premises.

    Carry on
    Are those the only schools covered under Michigan Constitution? Also can you provide a little more proof? I'm guessing what you're saying is other colleges like KVCC (WMU????) would not be allowed to make those ordinances?
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  15. #15
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Pay close attention to research on the Michigan Community College act of 1966. I think you'll find they have much power.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Scooter's Avatar
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    The film screening was this past Tuesday, good work from people I know. The ordinance stuff is confusing to say the least and is something I will be looking for solid answers on, if there are any...?

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
    The film screening was this past Tuesday, good work from people I know. The ordinance stuff is confusing to say the least and is something I will be looking for solid answers on, if there are any...?
    Unless you have the money to be the test case, I wouldn't do it. You could jeopardize your CPL if convicted.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Scooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Unless you have the money to be the test case, I wouldn't do it. You could jeopardize your CPL if convicted.
    I agree, I wouldn't want to be a test case.

  19. #19
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
    I agree, I wouldn't want to be a test case.
    This answer is the closest to certainty you'll find on this forum (from my experience).
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Scooter's Avatar
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    The cofusing gun laws never cease to amaze me!

  21. #21
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
    The cofusing gun laws never cease to amaze me!
    Michigan is simple, we have preemption (mostly). Just think of the states that don't...
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  22. #22
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Are those the only schools covered under Michigan Constitution? Also can you provide a little more proof? I'm guessing what you're saying is other colleges like KVCC (WMU????) would not be allowed to make those ordinances?

    Besides MCL 123.1101 Et Seq., a college, university, community college, or junior college described in Section 4, 5, or 6 of Article VIII of the State Constitution of 1963 or established under Section 7 of Article VIII of the State Constitution of 1963, have been able to avoid coming under many laws.


    The Constitution gives the universities and colleges the ability to manage/control their campuses...these provisions being stated under each of the sections in the Michigan Constitution:


    Article VIII, Section 4 of the Constitution requires the Legislature to

    appropriate moneys to maintain certain named institutions (the University of

    Michigan, Michigan State University, Wayne State University, Eastern

    Michigan University, Michigan Technological University, and Grand Valley

    State University) and other institutions of higher education established by law.


    Article VIII, Section 5 of the Constitution prescribes governing boards for the

    University of Michigan (Regents), Michigan State University (Board of

    Trustees), and Wayne State University (Board of Governors), and grants to

    each board general supervision of its institution.


    Article VIII, Section 6 of the Constitution specifies that other institutions of

    higher education established by law having authority to grant baccalaureate

    degrees are to be governed by a board of control with general supervision of

    the institution. The Governor appoints board members.


    Article VIII, Section 7 of the Constitution provides for the establishment and

    financial support of public community and junior colleges that are supervised

    and controlled by locally-elected boards.


    The argument that the Universities and Colleges aver is that the constitutional provisions for the supervision and or control of the institutions gives them the ability to ban firearms. The courts have traditionally supported this belief with rulings in the institutions' favor in regards to other state laws.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  23. #23
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Besides MCL 123.1101 Et Seq., a college, university, community college, or junior college described in Section 4, 5, or 6 of Article VIII of the State Constitution of 1963 or established under Section 7 of Article VIII of the State Constitution of 1963, have been able to avoid coming under many laws.


    The Constitution gives the universities and colleges the ability to manage/control their campuses...these provisions being stated under each of the sections in the Michigan Constitution:


    Article VIII, Section 4 of the Constitution requires the Legislature to

    appropriate moneys to maintain certain named institutions (the University of

    Michigan, Michigan State University, Wayne State University, Eastern

    Michigan University, Michigan Technological University, and Grand Valley

    State University) and other institutions of higher education established by law.


    Article VIII, Section 5 of the Constitution prescribes governing boards for the

    University of Michigan (Regents), Michigan State University (Board of

    Trustees), and Wayne State University (Board of Governors), and grants to

    each board general supervision of its institution.


    Article VIII, Section 6 of the Constitution specifies that other institutions of

    higher education established by law having authority to grant baccalaureate

    degrees are to be governed by a board of control with general supervision of

    the institution. The Governor appoints board members.


    Article VIII, Section 7 of the Constitution provides for the establishment and

    financial support of public community and junior colleges that are supervised

    and controlled by locally-elected boards.


    The argument that the Universities and Colleges aver is that the constitutional provisions for the supervision and or control of the institutions gives them the ability to ban firearms. The courts have traditionally supported this belief with rulings in the institutions' favor in regards to other state laws.
    Thank you. I don't know if I will ever get to carry on campus in my college career but I hope at least one day my brother will.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  24. #24
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Thank you. I don't know if I will ever get to carry on campus in my college career but I hope at least one day my brother will.
    Just go to college in Utah or Colorado.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  25. #25
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Just go to college in Utah or Colorado.

    Bronson
    Haha it's crossed my mind. The only school I could go to would be the University of Colorado, and I'm already at whats known to be the best school for my program so switching just to carry in class would be a little crazy, and I couldn't carry in Colorado until I turn 21. Utah on the other hand, with the out of state permits I'm getting, I could carry there.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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