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Thread: Need OC Advice - Stopped by LEO's at Mary Washington for OC

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    Exclamation Need OC Advice - Stopped by LEO's at Mary Washington for OC

    Around 5:00pm today, I was at a public Virginia university attending an outdoor event with some former students and professors of mine. I have a permit to carry concealed, but since the weather was warm, I decided to open carry.

    At 5:30pm, I was approached by one of the university police. He asked me if I was a police officer; I told him no. He asked me why I had a handgun on campus; I told him because open carry is legal in Virginia. He then asked me if I have a permit to carry concealed; I told him yes and retreived it from my wallet.

    He asked me if I knew it was illegal to have a firearm in a courthouse, church, school, etc. I told him yes. He then asked me why I had the handgun on school grounds. I told him because the law does not cover universities, only K-12 schools. He told me he has a permit as well and that I was wrong.

    We went round and round for a few minutes while he called for backup. Another officer arrived and he explained the situation to him. The other officer said very little except agree with the first officer. The first officer then told me I was in violation of the law because these were school grounds and that he could have my permit revoked. All through this, I politely told him that I believe he is wrong and kindly asked that he look it up. He told me that he would look it up with me, but never did.

    Finally, he asked me to leave the university grounds and told me to be glad he gave me the benefit of the doubt and was allowing me to walk away without legal action. I took a business card from each officer, walked to my truck and left.

    I want to know if I'm in the wrong of if the officer is. From my research, I really do think the officers were wrong. If not, I'm fine with that, but I really do think they were wrong and do not know the law.

    Can someone provide me with some info and "ammo" here and what I can do if I am indeed right?

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackoak88 View Post
    Around 5:00pm today, I was at a public Virginia university attending an outdoor event with some former students and professors of mine. I have a permit to carry concealed, but since the weather was warm, I decided to open carry.

    At 5:30pm, I was approached by one of the university police. He asked me if I was a police officer; I told him no. He asked me why I had a handgun on campus; I told him because open carry is legal in Virginia. He then asked me if I have a permit to carry concealed; I told him yes and retreived it from my wallet.

    He asked me if I knew it was illegal to have a firearm in a courthouse, church, school, etc. I told him yes. He then asked me why I had the handgun on school grounds. I told him because the law does not cover universities, only K-12 schools. He told me he has a permit as well and that I was wrong.

    We went round and round for a few minutes while he called for backup. Another officer arrived and he explained the situation to him. The other officer said very little except agree with the first officer. The first officer then told me I was in violation of the law because these were school grounds and that he could have my permit revoked. All through this, I politely told him that I believe he is wrong and kindly asked that he look it up. He told me that he would look it up with me, but never did.

    Finally, he asked me to leave the university grounds and told me to be glad he gave me the benefit of the doubt and was allowing me to walk away without legal action. I took a business card from each officer, walked to my truck and left.

    I want to know if I'm in the wrong of if the officer is. From my research, I really do think the officers were wrong. If not, I'm fine with that, but I really do think they were wrong and do not know the law.

    Can someone provide me with some info and "ammo" here and what I can do if I am indeed right?

    Thanks.
    Generally, your right but without details, I can't say one way or the other for certain.

    What University?
    Officers names.....details.

    I hate these posts where people ask for advice but just give general "This Happened to me" information.

    The name of the school is the most important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Generally, your right but without details, I can't say one way or the other for certain.

    What University?
    Officers names.....details.

    I hate these posts where people ask for advice but just give general "This Happened to me" information.

    The name of the school is the most important.
    The school was the University of Mary Washington in Fredericksburg, VA and the two officers were William Somers and Jeffrey Perry.

    What other info do you need?

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackoak88 View Post
    The school was the University of Mary Washington in Fredericksburg, VA and the two officers were William Somers and Jeffrey Perry.

    What other info do you need?
    Mary Washington is a state school I believe. You were outside of the buildings if I understand this right....you were entirely right.

    First, I'd recommend you FOIA all communications between the officers and between the officers and dispatcher.
    Include any electronic messages.

    After you get that...it's butt kicking time (Unless you're enrolled there) then it's keep it quiet time

    You should never show your CHP unless CC'ing and you need to carry a recorder on campus.

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    Im not sure if youre right or wrong but in florida universities are illegal. Hopefully its different where you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Mary Washington is a state school I believe. You were outside of the buildings if I understand this right....you were entirely right.

    First, I'd recommend you FOIA all communications between the officers and between the officers and dispatcher.
    Include any electronic messages.

    After you get that...it's butt kicking time (Unless you're enrolled there) then it's keep it quiet time

    You should never show your CHP unless CC'ing and you need to carry a recorder on campus.
    UMW is indeed a state school and yes, I was outside on the lawn. And I'm not a student there.

    How do I go about FOIA'ing the communications?

    I told him I didn't need my CHP since I was open carrying, but I obliged politely anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Mary Washington is a state school I believe. You were outside of the buildings if I understand this right....you were entirely right.

    First, I'd recommend you FOIA all communications between the officers and between the officers and dispatcher.
    Include any electronic messages.

    After you get that...it's butt kicking time (Unless you're enrolled there) then it's keep it quiet time

    You should never show your CHP unless CC'ing and you need to carry a recorder on campus.
    I wonder if Jeffry Perry is related to the Chief. That could make an interesting laws

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    blackoak were you wearing a voice recorder during this occasion? Or have you ever considered one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackoak88 View Post
    The school was the University of Mary Washington in Fredericksburg, VA and the two officers were William Somers and Jeffrey Perry.

    What other info do you need?
    It's a Freedom of Information Request.

    Send the Chief (Perry) an email requesting all electronic or written information pertaining to the incident (be specific. Officers, location, date, time, etc) and include any email or other computer related communications.

    Do a Google for Va FOIA and you'll get some sample forms if you want.

    They have to respond within 5 working days.

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    Lucky you weren't arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Mary Washington is a state school I believe. You were outside of the buildings if I understand this right....you were entirely right.

    First, I'd recommend you FOIA all communications between the officers and between the officers and dispatcher.
    Include any electronic messages.

    After you get that...it's butt kicking time (Unless you're enrolled there) then it's keep it quiet time

    You should never show your CHP unless CC'ing and you need to carry a recorder on campus.
    UMW is a hostile environment for Open Carry. See, for example:

    UMW student reports person with gun on campus

    Also note that UMW is one of the many colleges that joined the campaign to keep guns off campus.

    At least you won't have to deal with "judge" Judy Hample.

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    I just spoke to Sgt Hall and he informed me that the officers were reprimanded and told that they were wrong to have removed me from campus. He said that they do not have recording equipment linked between dispatch and officers (I doubt that) but that if I sent him a letter regarding the situation, he would reply and give me written proof of our conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    It's a Freedom of Information Request.

    Send the Chief (Perry) an email requesting all electronic or written information pertaining to the incident (be specific. Officers, location, date, time, etc) and include any email or other computer related communications.

    Do a Google for Va FOIA and you'll get some sample forms if you want.

    They have to respond within 5 working days.
    Good luck with that.

    UMW won't release recording of President Judy Hample's emergency test

    University of Mary Washington STILL won't release recording of president's emergency test call

    Freedom of Information Act experts, including the executive director of the Virginia Freedom of Information Advisory Council, disagree with the university's interpretation of the law.

    UMW is not legally required to withhold the record, even if it is exempt from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackoak88 View Post
    I just spoke to Sgt Hall and he informed me that the officers were reprimanded and told that they were wrong to have removed me from campus. He said that they do not have recording equipment linked between dispatch and officers (I doubt that) but that if I sent him a letter regarding the situation, he would reply and give me written proof of our conversation.
    Get a letter from him stating what he told you on the phone.
    Here is a site that will help with future FOIA requests. I'm a member of the foundation and they're more help than FOIA Council.

    http://www.opengovva.org/virginias-foia-the-law

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alude904 View Post
    Im not sure if youre right or wrong but in florida universities are illegal. Hopefully its different where you are.
    This ain't Florida and the Officers acted illegally!

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    It's a Freedom of Information Request.

    Send the Chief (Perry) an email requesting all electronic or written information pertaining to the incident (be specific. Officers, location, date, time, etc) and include any email or other computer related communications.

    Do a Google for Va FOIA and you'll get some sample forms if you want.

    They have to respond within 5 working days.
    Cite, please.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-21-2011 at 07:07 PM.

  16. #16
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Cite, please.
    http://www.opengovva.org/virginias-foia-the-law

    2.2-3700. Short title; policy.
    § 2.2-3701. Definitions.
    § 2.2-3702. Notice of chapter.
    § 2.2-3703. Public bodies and records to which chapter inapplicable; voter registration and election records; access by persons incarcerated in a state, local, or federal correctional facility.
    § 2.2-3704. Public records to be open to inspection; procedure for requesting records and responding to request; charges.
    § 2.2-3704.1. Posting of notice of rights and responsibilities by state public bodies; assistance by the Freedom of Information Advisory Council.
    § 2.2-3705.1. Exclusions to application of chapter; exclusions of general application to public bodies.
    § 2.2-3705.2. Exclusions to application of chapter; records relating to public safety.
    § 2.2-3705.3. Exclusions to application of chapter; records relating to administrative investigations.
    § 2.2-3705.4. Exclusions to application of chapter; educational records and certain records of educational institutions.
    § 2.2-3705.5. Exclusions to application of chapter; health and social services records.
    § 2.2-3705.6. Exclusions to application of chapter; proprietary records and trade secrets.
    § 2.2-3705.7. Exclusions to application of chapter; records of specific public bodies and certain other limited exemptions.
    § 2.2-3705.8. Limitation on record exclusions.
    § 2.2-3706. Disclosure of criminal records; limitations.
    § 2.2-3707. Meetings to be public; notice of meetings; recordings; minutes.
    § 2.2-3707.01. Meetings of the General Assembly.
    § 2.2-3707.1. Posting of minutes for state boards and commissions.
    § 2.2-3708. Electronic communication meetings.
    § 2.2-3708.1. Participation in meetings in event of emergency; certain disabilities; distance from meeting location for certain public bodies.
    § 2.2-3709. Expired.
    § 2.2-3710. Transaction of public business other than by votes at meetings prohibited.
    § 2.2-3711. Closed meetings authorized for certain limited purposes.
    § 2.2-3712. Closed meetings procedures; certification of proceedings.
    § 2.2-3713. Proceedings for enforcement of chapter.***
    § 2.2-3714. Violations and penalties.

    When the government gets your FOIA request, it has five days to respond to you, by either giving you the entire record, withholding the entire record, giving you part of the record, or letting you know that it will take another seven days to fulfill the request. If any part of the record is withheld, the government must tell you exactly which FOIA exemption or other statute justifies the denial. The government doesn’t have to create a new record where one doesn’t already exist. (§2.2-3704)

    You may be right in calendar days but I've never had one do it.
    Last edited by peter nap; 04-21-2011 at 07:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackoak88 View Post
    Around 5:00pm today, I was at a public Virginia university attending an outdoor event with some former students and professors of mine. I have a permit to carry concealed, but since the weather was warm, I decided to open carry.

    At 5:30pm, I was approached by one of the university police. He asked me if I was a police officer; I told him no. He asked me why I had a handgun on campus; I told him because open carry is legal in Virginia. He then asked me if I have a permit to carry concealed; I told him yes and retreived it from my wallet.

    He asked me if I knew it was illegal to have a firearm in a courthouse, church, school, etc. I told him yes. He then asked me why I had the handgun on school grounds. I told him because the law does not cover universities, only K-12 schools. He told me he has a permit as well and that I was wrong.

    We went round and round for a few minutes while he called for backup. Another officer arrived and he explained the situation to him. The other officer said very little except agree with the first officer. The first officer then told me I was in violation of the law because these were school grounds and that he could have my permit revoked. All through this, I politely told him that I believe he is wrong and kindly asked that he look it up. He told me that he would look it up with me, but never did.

    Finally, he asked me to leave the university grounds and told me to be glad he gave me the benefit of the doubt and was allowing me to walk away without legal action. I took a business card from each officer, walked to my truck and left.

    I want to know if I'm in the wrong of if the officer is. From my research, I really do think the officers were wrong. If not, I'm fine with that, but I really do think they were wrong and do not know the law.

    Can someone provide me with some info and "ammo" here and what I can do if I am indeed right?

    Thanks.
    PM me and I will help you through it FOIA's can be a pain.

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    I sent an email to the Sgt requesting a letter restating out phone conversation. I also sent an email to the Chief requesting the communication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alude904 View Post
    Im not sure if youre right or wrong but in florida universities are illegal. Hopefully its different where you are.
    Very different.

    The one good thing that resulted from the recent Va. Supreme Court decision regarding George Mason University was reaffirming that guns were legal outside the buildings.
    http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2..._mason_gun_ban

    The school can still sanction employees or students for violation of their policy on campus, but there is no application to the general public.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    2nd Admendment

    good luck with that chief and carry on! I wish people would get over them selves and just l;et us have all the freedoms cops have, since that is our constitutional right anyhow!
    why do school shootings happen.... for the same reason they never happen at a shooting range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackoak88 View Post
    Around 5:00pm today, I was at a public Virginia university attending an outdoor event with some former students and professors of mine. I have a permit to carry concealed, but since the weather was warm, I decided to open carry.

    At 5:30pm, I was approached by one of the university police. He asked me if I was a police officer; I told him no. He asked me why I had a handgun on campus; I told him because open carry is legal in Virginia. He then asked me if I have a permit to carry concealed; I told him yes and retreived it from my wallet.

    He asked me if I knew it was illegal to have a firearm in a courthouse, church, school, etc. I told him yes. He then asked me why I had the handgun on school grounds. I told him because the law does not cover universities, only K-12 schools. He told me he has a permit as well and that I was wrong.

    We went round and round for a few minutes while he called for backup. Another officer arrived and he explained the situation to him. The other officer said very little except agree with the first officer. The first officer then told me I was in violation of the law because these were school grounds and that he could have my permit revoked. All through this, I politely told him that I believe he is wrong and kindly asked that he look it up. He told me that he would look it up with me, but never did.

    Finally, he asked me to leave the university grounds and told me to be glad he gave me the benefit of the doubt and was allowing me to walk away without legal action. I took a business card from each officer, walked to my truck and left.

    I want to know if I'm in the wrong of if the officer is. From my research, I really do think the officers were wrong. If not, I'm fine with that, but I really do think they were wrong and do not know the law.

    Can someone provide me with some info and "ammo" here and what I can do if I am indeed right?

    Thanks.

    Oh nvm, you said it "UMW is indeed a state school and yes, I was outside on the lawn. And I'm not a student there." You are not a student there. If you where a student there that would be a problem, I believe...
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 04-21-2011 at 08:58 PM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    uuuuuuuugggg, why were you carrying on a college :-O?
    Are you really asking that question? Here especially, of all places??

    VA colleges have not yet succeeded in removing the general public's ability to carry on the property. I look forward to doing it on my current campus as opportunities arise after I graduate.
    Last edited by t33j; 04-21-2011 at 08:59 PM.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    I thougt he was going to say VCU! Anyone think they are a white mouse?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by t33j View Post
    Are you really asking that question? Here especially, of all places??

    VA colleges have not yet succeeded in removing the general public's ability to carry on the property. I look forward to doing it on my current campus as opportunities arise after I graduate.
    Sorry, I changed my post. But I think it's crazy that you can carry AFTER you graduate/or do not attend there. BUT! cannot carry if you are a student!

    You can not carry in the buildings, just grounds CORRECT? (not a student)
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 04-21-2011 at 09:55 PM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Coersion is against the law.

    You sir, were coerced by two LEO's.

    Dirty
    Last edited by dirty_sanchez; 04-21-2011 at 10:07 PM.

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