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Need OC Advice - Stopped by LEO's at Mary Washington for OC

blackoak88

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
19
Location
, ,
Around 5:00pm today, I was at a public Virginia university attending an outdoor event with some former students and professors of mine. I have a permit to carry concealed, but since the weather was warm, I decided to open carry.

At 5:30pm, I was approached by one of the university police. He asked me if I was a police officer; I told him no. He asked me why I had a handgun on campus; I told him because open carry is legal in Virginia. He then asked me if I have a permit to carry concealed; I told him yes and retreived it from my wallet.

He asked me if I knew it was illegal to have a firearm in a courthouse, church, school, etc. I told him yes. He then asked me why I had the handgun on school grounds. I told him because the law does not cover universities, only K-12 schools. He told me he has a permit as well and that I was wrong.

We went round and round for a few minutes while he called for backup. Another officer arrived and he explained the situation to him. The other officer said very little except agree with the first officer. The first officer then told me I was in violation of the law because these were school grounds and that he could have my permit revoked. All through this, I politely told him that I believe he is wrong and kindly asked that he look it up. He told me that he would look it up with me, but never did.

Finally, he asked me to leave the university grounds and told me to be glad he gave me the benefit of the doubt and was allowing me to walk away without legal action. I took a business card from each officer, walked to my truck and left.

I want to know if I'm in the wrong of if the officer is. From my research, I really do think the officers were wrong. If not, I'm fine with that, but I really do think they were wrong and do not know the law.

Can someone provide me with some info and "ammo" here and what I can do if I am indeed right?

Thanks.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Around 5:00pm today, I was at a public Virginia university attending an outdoor event with some former students and professors of mine. I have a permit to carry concealed, but since the weather was warm, I decided to open carry.

At 5:30pm, I was approached by one of the university police. He asked me if I was a police officer; I told him no. He asked me why I had a handgun on campus; I told him because open carry is legal in Virginia. He then asked me if I have a permit to carry concealed; I told him yes and retreived it from my wallet.

He asked me if I knew it was illegal to have a firearm in a courthouse, church, school, etc. I told him yes. He then asked me why I had the handgun on school grounds. I told him because the law does not cover universities, only K-12 schools. He told me he has a permit as well and that I was wrong.

We went round and round for a few minutes while he called for backup. Another officer arrived and he explained the situation to him. The other officer said very little except agree with the first officer. The first officer then told me I was in violation of the law because these were school grounds and that he could have my permit revoked. All through this, I politely told him that I believe he is wrong and kindly asked that he look it up. He told me that he would look it up with me, but never did.

Finally, he asked me to leave the university grounds and told me to be glad he gave me the benefit of the doubt and was allowing me to walk away without legal action. I took a business card from each officer, walked to my truck and left.

I want to know if I'm in the wrong of if the officer is. From my research, I really do think the officers were wrong. If not, I'm fine with that, but I really do think they were wrong and do not know the law.

Can someone provide me with some info and "ammo" here and what I can do if I am indeed right?

Thanks.

Generally, your right but without details, I can't say one way or the other for certain.

What University?
Officers names.....details.

I hate these posts where people ask for advice but just give general "This Happened to me" information.

The name of the school is the most important.
 

blackoak88

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
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Generally, your right but without details, I can't say one way or the other for certain.

What University?
Officers names.....details.

I hate these posts where people ask for advice but just give general "This Happened to me" information.

The name of the school is the most important.

The school was the University of Mary Washington in Fredericksburg, VA and the two officers were William Somers and Jeffrey Perry.

What other info do you need?
 

peter nap

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Joined
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Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
The school was the University of Mary Washington in Fredericksburg, VA and the two officers were William Somers and Jeffrey Perry.

What other info do you need?

Mary Washington is a state school I believe. You were outside of the buildings if I understand this right....you were entirely right.

First, I'd recommend you FOIA all communications between the officers and between the officers and dispatcher.
Include any electronic messages.

After you get that...it's butt kicking time (Unless you're enrolled there) then it's keep it quiet time:uhoh:

You should never show your CHP unless CC'ing and you need to carry a recorder on campus.
 

Alude904

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Messages
56
Location
Florida
Im not sure if youre right or wrong but in florida universities are illegal. Hopefully its different where you are.
 

blackoak88

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
19
Location
, ,
Mary Washington is a state school I believe. You were outside of the buildings if I understand this right....you were entirely right.

First, I'd recommend you FOIA all communications between the officers and between the officers and dispatcher.
Include any electronic messages.

After you get that...it's butt kicking time (Unless you're enrolled there) then it's keep it quiet time:uhoh:

You should never show your CHP unless CC'ing and you need to carry a recorder on campus.

UMW is indeed a state school and yes, I was outside on the lawn. And I'm not a student there.

How do I go about FOIA'ing the communications?

I told him I didn't need my CHP since I was open carrying, but I obliged politely anyway.
 

peter nap

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Joined
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Messages
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Location
Valhalla
Mary Washington is a state school I believe. You were outside of the buildings if I understand this right....you were entirely right.

First, I'd recommend you FOIA all communications between the officers and between the officers and dispatcher.
Include any electronic messages.

After you get that...it's butt kicking time (Unless you're enrolled there) then it's keep it quiet time:uhoh:

You should never show your CHP unless CC'ing and you need to carry a recorder on campus.

I wonder if Jeffry Perry is related to the Chief. That could make an interesting laws:lol:
 

peter nap

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Joined
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Messages
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Location
Valhalla
The school was the University of Mary Washington in Fredericksburg, VA and the two officers were William Somers and Jeffrey Perry.

What other info do you need?

It's a Freedom of Information Request.

Send the Chief (Perry) an email requesting all electronic or written information pertaining to the incident (be specific. Officers, location, date, time, etc) and include any email or other computer related communications.

Do a Google for Va FOIA and you'll get some sample forms if you want.

They have to respond within 5 working days.
 

Repeater

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
2,498
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
Lucky you weren't arrested

Mary Washington is a state school I believe. You were outside of the buildings if I understand this right....you were entirely right.

First, I'd recommend you FOIA all communications between the officers and between the officers and dispatcher.
Include any electronic messages.

After you get that...it's butt kicking time (Unless you're enrolled there) then it's keep it quiet time:uhoh:

You should never show your CHP unless CC'ing and you need to carry a recorder on campus.

UMW is a hostile environment for Open Carry. See, for example:

UMW student reports person with gun on campus

Also note that UMW is one of the many colleges that joined the campaign to keep guns off campus.

At least you won't have to deal with "judge" Judy Hample.
 

blackoak88

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Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
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I just spoke to Sgt Hall and he informed me that the officers were reprimanded and told that they were wrong to have removed me from campus. He said that they do not have recording equipment linked between dispatch and officers (I doubt that) but that if I sent him a letter regarding the situation, he would reply and give me written proof of our conversation.
 

Repeater

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
2,498
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
It's a Freedom of Information Request.

Send the Chief (Perry) an email requesting all electronic or written information pertaining to the incident (be specific. Officers, location, date, time, etc) and include any email or other computer related communications.

Do a Google for Va FOIA and you'll get some sample forms if you want.

They have to respond within 5 working days.

Good luck with that.

UMW won't release recording of President Judy Hample's emergency test

University of Mary Washington STILL won't release recording of president's emergency test call

Freedom of Information Act experts, including the executive director of the Virginia Freedom of Information Advisory Council, disagree with the university's interpretation of the law.

UMW is not legally required to withhold the record, even if it is exempt from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act.
 

peter nap

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Joined
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Messages
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Location
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I just spoke to Sgt Hall and he informed me that the officers were reprimanded and told that they were wrong to have removed me from campus. He said that they do not have recording equipment linked between dispatch and officers (I doubt that) but that if I sent him a letter regarding the situation, he would reply and give me written proof of our conversation.

Get a letter from him stating what he told you on the phone.
Here is a site that will help with future FOIA requests. I'm a member of the foundation and they're more help than FOIA Council.

http://www.opengovva.org/virginias-foia-the-law
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
It's a Freedom of Information Request.

Send the Chief (Perry) an email requesting all electronic or written information pertaining to the incident (be specific. Officers, location, date, time, etc) and include any email or other computer related communications.

Do a Google for Va FOIA and you'll get some sample forms if you want.

They have to respond within 5 working days.

Cite, please.
 
Last edited:

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
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Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Cite, please.

http://www.opengovva.org/virginias-foia-the-law

2.2-3700. Short title; policy.
§ 2.2-3701. Definitions.
§ 2.2-3702. Notice of chapter.
§ 2.2-3703. Public bodies and records to which chapter inapplicable; voter registration and election records; access by persons incarcerated in a state, local, or federal correctional facility.
§ 2.2-3704. Public records to be open to inspection; procedure for requesting records and responding to request; charges.
§ 2.2-3704.1. Posting of notice of rights and responsibilities by state public bodies; assistance by the Freedom of Information Advisory Council.
§ 2.2-3705.1. Exclusions to application of chapter; exclusions of general application to public bodies.
§ 2.2-3705.2. Exclusions to application of chapter; records relating to public safety.
§ 2.2-3705.3. Exclusions to application of chapter; records relating to administrative investigations.
§ 2.2-3705.4. Exclusions to application of chapter; educational records and certain records of educational institutions.
§ 2.2-3705.5. Exclusions to application of chapter; health and social services records.
§ 2.2-3705.6. Exclusions to application of chapter; proprietary records and trade secrets.
§ 2.2-3705.7. Exclusions to application of chapter; records of specific public bodies and certain other limited exemptions.
§ 2.2-3705.8. Limitation on record exclusions.
§ 2.2-3706. Disclosure of criminal records; limitations.
§ 2.2-3707. Meetings to be public; notice of meetings; recordings; minutes.
§ 2.2-3707.01. Meetings of the General Assembly.
§ 2.2-3707.1. Posting of minutes for state boards and commissions.
§ 2.2-3708. Electronic communication meetings.
§ 2.2-3708.1. Participation in meetings in event of emergency; certain disabilities; distance from meeting location for certain public bodies.
§ 2.2-3709. Expired.
§ 2.2-3710. Transaction of public business other than by votes at meetings prohibited.
§ 2.2-3711. Closed meetings authorized for certain limited purposes.
§ 2.2-3712. Closed meetings procedures; certification of proceedings.
§ 2.2-3713. Proceedings for enforcement of chapter.***
§ 2.2-3714. Violations and penalties.

When the government gets your FOIA request, it has five days to respond to you, by either giving you the entire record, withholding the entire record, giving you part of the record, or letting you know that it will take another seven days to fulfill the request. If any part of the record is withheld, the government must tell you exactly which FOIA exemption or other statute justifies the denial. The government doesn’t have to create a new record where one doesn’t already exist. (§2.2-3704)

You may be right in calendar days but I've never had one do it.
 
Last edited:

All American Nightmare

Regular Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
521
Location
Never Never Land
Around 5:00pm today, I was at a public Virginia university attending an outdoor event with some former students and professors of mine. I have a permit to carry concealed, but since the weather was warm, I decided to open carry.

At 5:30pm, I was approached by one of the university police. He asked me if I was a police officer; I told him no. He asked me why I had a handgun on campus; I told him because open carry is legal in Virginia. He then asked me if I have a permit to carry concealed; I told him yes and retreived it from my wallet.

He asked me if I knew it was illegal to have a firearm in a courthouse, church, school, etc. I told him yes. He then asked me why I had the handgun on school grounds. I told him because the law does not cover universities, only K-12 schools. He told me he has a permit as well and that I was wrong.

We went round and round for a few minutes while he called for backup. Another officer arrived and he explained the situation to him. The other officer said very little except agree with the first officer. The first officer then told me I was in violation of the law because these were school grounds and that he could have my permit revoked. All through this, I politely told him that I believe he is wrong and kindly asked that he look it up. He told me that he would look it up with me, but never did.

Finally, he asked me to leave the university grounds and told me to be glad he gave me the benefit of the doubt and was allowing me to walk away without legal action. I took a business card from each officer, walked to my truck and left.

I want to know if I'm in the wrong of if the officer is. From my research, I really do think the officers were wrong. If not, I'm fine with that, but I really do think they were wrong and do not know the law.

Can someone provide me with some info and "ammo" here and what I can do if I am indeed right?

Thanks.
PM me and I will help you through it FOIA's can be a pain.
 

blackoak88

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
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, ,
I sent an email to the Sgt requesting a letter restating out phone conversation. I also sent an email to the Chief requesting the communication.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Im not sure if youre right or wrong but in florida universities are illegal. Hopefully its different where you are.

Very different.

The one good thing that resulted from the recent Va. Supreme Court decision regarding George Mason University was reaffirming that guns were legal outside the buildings.
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/01/14/qt/virginia_supreme_court_upholds_george_mason_gun_ban

The school can still sanction employees or students for violation of their policy on campus, but there is no application to the general public.
 

greatsimon

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Messages
69
Location
Goshen, Ohio, United States
2nd Admendment

good luck with that chief and carry on! I wish people would get over them selves and just l;et us have all the freedoms cops have, since that is our constitutional right anyhow!
 
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