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Thread: Cannot Open Carry With a Concealed Carry Holster

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    Cannot Open Carry With a Concealed Carry Holster

    Bangor teen points gun at another
    April 20, 2011

    BANGOR, Maine — A woman near the Dunkin’ Donuts on Main Street noticed a Bangor teenager pointing a gun at another person Tuesday afternoon and called police who arrived in force, Sgt. Paul Edwards said Wednesday.

    Officer Joe Baillargeon and backup units responded to the junction of Davis and Main streets at around 4 p.m. and found Alexander W. Moleon, 18, of Bangor.

    “Mr. Moleon threw his hands in the air as the officer approached him and was immediately searched,” Edwards said in a statement.

    He had a .380-caliber handgun in a holster and told Baillargeon “that a group of armed guys came after him,” the sergeant said.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Even though Moleon was carrying the gun openly in a holster, “this holster is designed to conceal the gun,” so he was charged with carrying a concealed weapon, Edwards said.
    So... let me get this straight; the report states he was openly carrying, but because the holster was designed to conceal it's now concealed carry even if the pistol was plainly visible?

    I'm quite curious to know just what holster was used but, it's possible I smell a WIN here for states like Florida that require concealed carry. Just be sure to use a holster 'designed to conceal' and you can openly carry with impunity.

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    The Bangor Police need to be Taught that The Correct Charge in This Incident would be:
    Maine Code Title 25 Part 5 Chapter 252 2001-A(1)(A).

    The Violation of The above Enumerated Statute would be a Class D Crime.

    The Bangor Police NEED Education on Correct Statute Application.

    Furthermore, The Holster Used is Immaterial, it is whether or not The Firearm is Concealed or Worn under a Persons' Clothing that Decides The Case, not as to what Type of Holster was Used.
    Last edited by aadvark; 04-22-2011 at 12:50 PM.

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    Bangor City Code has The Following ILLEGAL Firearm-related Ordinances:

    1. Article II of Chapter 54 of Part II of Bangor City Code, more Specifically 54-7, is Preempted.

    2. [OMIT]

    3. Chapter 231 of The Same, more Specifically 231-6(B), is Partially Preempted.

    Maine Firearms Preemption Statute is Located under Chapter 252-A of Part 5 of Title 25 of Maine Code, and is more Specifically, 2011(2) of The Same.

    Bangor City must REPEAL Their ILLEGAL Firearm-related Ordinances as They are Void.
    Last edited by aadvark; 04-22-2011 at 03:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    Bangor City Code has The Following ILLEGAL Firearm-related Ordinances:

    1. Article II of Chapter 54 of Part II of Bangor City Code, more Specifically 54-7, is Preempted.

    2. Chapter 215 of The Same, more Specifically 215-5, is Partially Preempted.

    3. Chapter 231 of The Same, more Specifically 231-6(B), is Partially Preempted.

    Maine Firearms Preemption Statute is Located under Chapter 252-A of Part 5 of Title 25 of Maine Code, and is more Specifically, 2011(2) of The Same.

    Bangor City must REPEAL Their ILLEGAL Firearm-related Ordinances as They are Void.
    Where did you find Bangor City Code. I'd like to read to ordinances. Never mind I found it Link

    215-5 is not preempted as it deals with air rifles and BB guns which are not preempted. The definition for Firearm for purposes of Maine's preemption statute is found in Title 17-A Sec 2 Subsec 12-A and specifies "by the action of an explosive"
    Last edited by boyscout399; 04-22-2011 at 02:35 PM.

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    boyscout399:

    I will Correct My Omission, and Assimilate Your Advice as My Own.

    aadvark

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    every officer i've spoken with on this subject since reading it has agreed. Bangor PD is in the wrong. A holster whether concealed or belt/shoulder/paddle/pancake or IWB. does not constitute a Concealed weapon. thats like saying using a nasal decongestant means you dont have a lung infection. Just because its designed for one use doesnt mean you are guilty of that use by using it for a different activity. Should be interesting to see how this pans out , this is like saying because your wearing ankle socks with work boots you must be also wearing sneakers. .........IMO
    Last edited by carry for myself; 05-01-2011 at 05:20 PM. Reason: forgot a bit

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    Quote Originally Posted by carry for myself View Post
    every officer i've spoken with on this subject since reading it has agreed. Bangor PD is in the wrong. A holster whether concealed or belt/shoulder/paddle/pancake or IWB. does not constitute a Concealed weapon. thats like saying using a nasal decongestant means you dont have a lung infection. Just because its designed for one use doesnt mean you are guilty of that use by using it for a different activity. Should be interesting to see how this pans out , this is like saying because your wearing ankle socks with work boots you must be also wearing sneakers. .........IMO
    of couse they are wrong, but we aren't going to stick our neck out to help him simply because the woman said that he was pointing his firearm at someone. It wouldn't be a good PR move at ALL....

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    oh in no way am i saying anyone should. when you draw a weapon. your on your own haha. just saying the cops are wrong on that one. when you decide to unholster, you take all the responsibility of doing so. this kid didnt realize that. now he must pay the piper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    So... let me get this straight; the report states he was openly carrying, but because the holster was designed to conceal it's now concealed carry even if the pistol was plainly visible?
    This comes to mind.... The holster is carried openly, but the firearm is concealed by the holster.
    That's even a .380, like the story says.


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    There are too many possibilities and too little information to make an intelligent assessment.

    I'll wait for more definitive facts.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carry for myself View Post
    oh in no way am i saying anyone should. when you draw a weapon. your on your own haha. just saying the cops are wrong on that one. when you decide to unholster, you take all the responsibility of doing so. this kid didnt realize that. now he must pay the piper.
    I agree. I think there are two lessons to be learned here. Clearly the kid has something to learn that he didn't learn the first time around...keep your gun holstered unless absolutely necessary. Since no group was found and only one other person seen in a public place...not sure there was an absolute necessity to draw that firearm. But not enough info obviously to know for sure...but a good lesson to learn regardless.

    But let's not forget the lesson of the Bangor PD. With every incident there is a lesson learned. Unfortunately that's the way it is in life. Action, consequence. There is no consequence without an action. So now for the (hopefully) big slap on the wrist (or maybe more!) to get their info/policies/laws/rights straight.

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    This is the question I posted in the Holsters section of the main forum. But no one answered my question so i'll pose it here because it is related to this situation.

    My grampa has a ol Colt Army 38 spec. If I were to get a old ww1/2 style Flap military belt holster for it, would that be considered concealing? It covers most if not all of the handguns handle/butt. Its obvious its a holster..but is it illegal?
    Last edited by WantsToCarry; 05-26-2011 at 10:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WantsToCarry View Post
    This is the question I posted in the Holsters section of the main forum. But no one answered my question so i'll pose it here because it is related to this situation.

    My grampa has a ol Colt Army 38 spec. If I were to get a old ww1/2 style Flap military belt holster for it, would that be considered concealing? It covers most if not all of the handguns handle/butt. Its obvious its a holster..but is it illegal?
    In many (most?) states it is legal as OC. Here in Virginia I do not know of anyone that has had a problem with flap holsters. Unfortunately, your location is not specific as to what state you are located.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    In many (most?) states it is legal as OC. Here in Virginia I do not know of anyone that has had a problem with flap holsters. Unfortunately, your location is not specific as to what state you are located.
    He's in Maine...

    The terminology of Maine law says Concealed under the persons clothes or about the persons person. To my knowledge there is no caselaw that determines if a flap holster conceals the firearm, but my gut would say that it DOES conceal the firearm.

    The statute deals with the status of the firearm, not the status of the holster, and I would think that if the holster fully CONCEALS the firearm, then the firearm is in fact CONCEALED.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WantsToCarry View Post
    This is the question I posted in the Holsters section of the main forum. But no one answered my question so i'll pose it here because it is related to this situation.

    My grampa has a ol Colt Army 38 spec. If I were to get a old ww1/2 style Flap military belt holster for it, would that be considered concealing? It covers most if not all of the handguns handle/butt. Its obvious its a holster..but is it illegal?
    I know that when we had the open carry BBQ back in April, there was an elderly gentleman who brought the same type of holster/handgun you are talking about. He asked the police about it, and they said that it was fine. They even went so far as to allow him to carry the holster in his hand, as the firearm's holster was so old there was no longer any belt attachment. That my friends, is not a firearm anymore... it is a family heirloom.

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    i really believe it would be officer interpertaion on whether that "conceals" the firearm or not. as boyscout said i agree. my gut would say yes. would be more wise to get a newer US Army holster they use for the Beretta M9. still has a flap but leaves 90% of the handle hanging out. Or build in a retention strap. then tuck the flap behind the firearm in the holster.

    either way if you come across a officer who believes you are "concealing about the persons person" and a county DA that will prosicute. you may have a long battle ahead of you if the firearm is technically "concealed" within the holster.
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

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    Quote Originally Posted by carry for myself View Post
    i really believe it would be officer interpertaion on whether that "conceals" the firearm or not. as boyscout said i agree. my gut would say yes. would be more wise to get a newer US Army holster they use for the Beretta M9. still has a flap but leaves 90% of the handle hanging out. Or build in a retention strap. then tuck the flap behind the firearm in the holster.

    either way if you come across a officer who believes you are "concealing about the persons person" and a county DA that will prosicute. you may have a long battle ahead of you if the firearm is technically "concealed" within the holster.
    THAT my friend is the problem with not having constitutional carry!

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    Quote Originally Posted by shanebelanger View Post
    That my friends, is not a firearm anymore... it is a family heirloom.
    I did a SN check on it and its a 1917 Model. Thanks for the replys everyone. Im going to take it into a few gun shops and see what holsters work for it and get a better idea of how much the flap covers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WantsToCarry View Post
    I did a SN check on it and its a 1917 Model. Thanks for the replys everyone. Im going to take it into a few gun shops and see what holsters work for it and get a better idea of how much the flap covers.
    Are you saying it is a S&W/Colt Model 1917 revolver (the venerable .45acp model)?

    There are any number of good holsters that have no flap that fit that old workhorse. Just about anything that will accommodate a S&W N-frame will handle the 1917. There is stuff in both cowhide and horsehide, with or wiithout safety straps, as well as canvas, nylon and plastic that do not have flaps. Certain Olde Pharts have been known to take the military holster for the 1911 and turn the flap back & inside the slot between the holster and belt loop when carrying a 1917.

    stay safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Are you saying it is a S&W/Colt Model 1917 revolver (the venerable .45acp model)?


    stay safe.
    No skidmark its a Colt 38 special. Just the date of manufacture was 1917. I love the ol gal and would like to carry her. I just got to do some more shooting with her!

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    Quote Originally Posted by shanebelanger View Post
    THAT my friend is the problem with not having constitutional carry!

    i know it ughhh applied for my CCW on the 22nd.........guy at the desk said 4-6 weeks, i replied ill call you in 30 days ;-). so now i wait till the 22nd of june. and start makin the phones ring haha.
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

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    Quote Originally Posted by carry for myself View Post
    i know it ughhh applied for my CCW on the 22nd.........guy at the desk said 4-6 weeks, i replied ill call you in 30 days ;-). so now i wait till the 22nd of june. and start makin the phones ring haha.
    The statute in Maine says they MUST reply with your permit or denial within 30 days if you're a resident. not 4-6 weeks. 30 days maximum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    The statute in Maine says they MUST reply with your permit or denial within 30 days if you're a resident. not 4-6 weeks. 30 days maximum.
    Bingo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    The statute in Maine says they MUST reply with your permit or denial within 30 days if you're a resident. not 4-6 weeks. 30 days maximum.
    The problem is there are no repercussions for not complying. Police departments have no incentive to follow the law. Which is why it took 8+ weeks to get mine and would have taken longer if Mr Belanger wasn't such a bulldog.

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