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Thread: OC vs. CC vs. BG / draw speed

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    OC vs. CC vs. BG / draw speed

    Something to discuss with a devoted CCer or an anti. By circumstance, the criminal will almost always have the drop on you since you can neither draw, nor fire until they become a real threat. Consider this, You are faced with a criminal who has a gun clearly tucked into his/her waistband, and you KNOW they are going to shoot. You can't fire on them, you can't even draw on them. Not until they put their hand on the gun, and draw it in a threatening manner. At that point only can you use deadly force. Trouble is, you are literally put into a position of drawing and firing against someone who has already drawn their weapon. Do you really want to have to first come out of concealment, having that extra step between you and your life? There is no way that a CCer will ever draw faster than an OCer, and neither of us can out draw the bad guy due to the law.

    Anyone know of any cites or statistics to back this up?

    Next time you are in a discussion with a LEO that doesnt care for OC, just ask him/her why they don't CC as a part of the uniform.

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    True, and good points-but:
    The odds are already in favor of the BG 9 times out of 10 -on the street anyway-I take that as a given. If anything, the occasions on which any of us will ever have to draw at all,will be in response to something.

    It really depends on your method of carry, level of practice/training/experience.If one chooses to,or has to carry CC, then they'd best practice their drawing and getting off their 1st shot or double-tap-from their mode of concealment. Going to a range and picking a pistol up off the bench then popping off at stationary,paper targets at fixed distances, isnt going to cut it.

    Most of the time, OC is quicker, yes-a given. But, again method of carry and training with that method can be just as quick w/ practice. I'd gotten down my draw/1-st double-tap from concealment (pocket) to very nearly the same speed as my open-draw method, so.. I feel equally confident with both. Folks going around shoving things inside their waistbands,and under shirts (and jackets/sweaters/etc in winter) are pretty much goners, on the street most of the time, I;d think.

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    First off, the question of "how does one KNOW the perp is going to attempt to kill them?" comes to mind and in your scenario, I am going to assume sufficient information has been made apparent to the victim that this is about to take place. If this is the case and you have an opportunity to use your firearm, use it. The key factor in this is the concept of knowing to the best of your ability that you apprehend an imminent threat of serious bodily harm. Obviously if you do, something the BG as done or said has made you believe this. If you wait until he pulls his gun and points it at you, you have probably waited too long.

    Interesting scenario.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    First off, the question of "how does one KNOW the perp is going to attempt to kill them?" .

    You don't, its a hypothetical.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    You don't, its a hypothetical.
    Yes, I know. However the scenario was written as, "Consider this, You are faced with a criminal who has a gun clearly tucked into his/her waistband, and you KNOW they are going to shoot." This sentence clearly states that the individual knows the BG is going to shoot so in the scenario, it is not hypothetical based upon this sentence.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 04-23-2011 at 01:59 PM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    It was meant to be, since you can't really know what another person, especially someone in extreme violence mode, is going to do.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    It was meant to be, since you can't really know what another person, especially someone in extreme violence mode, is going to do.
    Ahh, but the sentence specifically states that you KNOW they are going to shoot. Not that you believe or think they are going to shoot. In reality, you're both right and wrong, but more right than wrong. And example of wrong would be, he has lined up seven people in a business, you being one of them, and has begun shooting them. Your perception of impending wounds is most likely true.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    True, and good points-but:
    The odds are already in favor of the BG 9 times out of 10 -on the street anyway-I take that as a given. If anything, the occasions on which any of us will ever have to draw at all,will be in response to something.

    It really depends on your method of carry, level of practice/training/experience.If one chooses to,or has to carry CC, then they'd best practice their drawing and getting off their 1st shot or double-tap-from their mode of concealment. Going to a range and picking a pistol up off the bench then popping off at stationary,paper targets at fixed distances, isnt going to cut it.

    Most of the time, OC is quicker, yes-a given. But, again method of carry and training with that method can be just as quick w/ practice. I'd gotten down my draw/1-st double-tap from concealment (pocket) to very nearly the same speed as my open-draw method, so.. I feel equally confident with both. Folks going around shoving things inside their waistbands,and under shirts (and jackets/sweaters/etc in winter) are pretty much goners, on the street most of the time, I;d think.
    Your personal opinion-which means nothing!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Sample View Post
    Your personal opinion-which means nothing!
    Oh, I'm confident you'll find out it means quiet a lot, should you ever have to actually draw that thing from your chosen mode of carry-while under fire,but have'nt bothered to practice doing so prior to that moment..

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    Open carry...concealed carry...doesn't matter. You will not win a reactionary engagement by trying to draw faster than the advisary. MOVE! Get off the x. Create angles and distance. Learn to shoot while moving. Leave quick draws to the competitions.

    DCR

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    I think you're missing the point.

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    I get the point, to a point (all pun intended)-just saying that yes, OC is -on avg.-faster than CC-in the scenario you mention, but w/practice and a less cumbersome mode of CC, one can get near enough to OC speed.
    And no, there arent likely to be any "cites" or statistics on draw and fire speeds OC vs. CC. It's just not something often documented, much less looked into, once investigated after the smoke clears..
    Last edited by j4l; 04-23-2011 at 04:58 PM.

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    One could easily act out these engagements using airsoft, video the results, and record average times of oc vs cc. Aiirsoft pistols can be had fairly cheap.

    DCR

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    You could say that the perp is either printing or has the grip sticking out of the waistband, is eyeing/following you, and you just have that "vibe" that he's going to do something. You pretty much know something is going to happen but not enough has happened to allow you to legally draw.

    You would also need either a small gun or very large pockets to pocket carry (or potentially both). I know that I couldn't pocket carry. But remember that most perps don't want to use their weapon and run away when confronted. There's also various times during the encounter that you can use to draw. Such as when reaching for a wallet or if the enemy has a knife.

    Overall the best argument I've heard for CC is if you're regularly in a bad area of town (like if your home is in a bad section) and the gun is likely to make you a target (extremely rare but more likely in those parts of town where gangs are most prevalent). Outside of that the most common reason is people not being comfortable with OC or not wanting to deal with people hassling them about OCing; oh and of places where its illegal to OC.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Draw speed is fine, but don't count on it meaning much. It is often hugely insignificant next to the time it takes you to get to cover, and then to fire quickly from behind cover. A great example is the fairly recent DPD shooting.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYqhzarOcYU

    Handguns are not magic death rays, and it could take you 5 or 10 or even more rounds to drop a bad guy, and you want to be as shielded as possible from his gun fire. Getting your gun out 3/10 of a second faster doesn't mean much if it means you'll get shot only 4 times instead of 6.
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    Per the posted hypothetical, I will assume anyone carrying in Condition Gangsta will first try to intimidate me, by showing the gun (already done in the scenario), then drawing it, holding it up over his head sideways, and then racking the slide to show me he really means business.

    No matter what my mode of carry, I can out-draw an unloaded gun all day, every day.

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    lol good point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Draw speed is fine, but don't count on it meaning much. It is often hugely insignificant next to the time it takes you to get to cover, and then to fire quickly from behind cover.
    Cover is great when it's immediately available. When it's not, however, a single second looking for cover means five less shots I can throw at a BG.

    Handguns are not magic death rays, and it could take you 5 or 10 or even more rounds to drop a bad guy, and you want to be as shielded as possible from his gun fire. Getting your gun out 3/10 of a second faster doesn't mean much if it means you'll get shot only 4 times instead of 6.
    I practice both CC and OC draws all the time. I'm down to 1.2 seconds for CC, and 0.25 seconds for the latter. That's about 5 shots worth.

    Put simply, if cover is IMMEDIATELY available, I might take it. If the situation is critical enough that I should take cover, it's probably critical enough I should probably take action, instead.
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    Got any video of those quarter-second draws?

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    Now consider this form of Concealed Carry.

    While walking back to your car from the ATM or Bank, into a parking lot after dinner, or similar situation, and you have your hand in your pocket wrapped around your pistol. No need to draw, just point and fire. A good argument for a revolver.

    As for concealed vs open, it's going to boil down to whether the person was adept at reading the threat. One who is ready to draw from either mode will do better than the one who is surprised.

    Last point will be skill. Poor marksmanship skills cancel any perceived advantages.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    ...But, again method of carry and training with that method can be just as quick w/ practice...
    I don't have issue with a lot of your commentary except for this blatantly incorrect statement.

    Concealed will always be slower than OC, and does not contribute to the positive reinforcement of society as a "danger zone" to criminals as CC advocates would love to push the idea that the "mystery gun" or the "Ya never know who..." ideology does.

    I sit and think about these arguments and literally fold them over and over again in my mind, and frankly, CC just flat out makes no sense in the end.

    It's entire presence as a carry method is based on the following:

    -Yielding to societal discomforts on behalf of hoplophobes
    -The "ninja" ideology, that counter ambushing an ambush is a wise and prudent idea.
    -That somehow criminals will be "more concerned" about the possible hidden firearm, than the absolute presence of open carrying citizens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowfiveoh View Post
    I don't have issue with a lot of your commentary except for this blatantly incorrect statement.

    Concealed will always be slower than OC, and does not contribute to the positive reinforcement of society as a "danger zone" to criminals as CC advocates would love to push the idea that the "mystery gun" or the "Ya never know who..." ideology does.

    I sit and think about these arguments and literally fold them over and over again in my mind, and frankly, CC just flat out makes no sense in the end.

    It's entire presence as a carry method is based on the following:

    -Yielding to societal discomforts on behalf of hoplophobes
    -The "ninja" ideology, that counter ambushing an ambush is a wise and prudent idea.
    -That somehow criminals will be "more concerned" about the possible hidden firearm, than the absolute presence of open carrying citizens.
    I dont disagree with you,for the most part. I do not like CC in the least. But it is what Im forced into/stuck with in order to legally carry,since my spineless politicos in my State killed off our OC effort with their last-minute betrayal.
    That being the case, I have to work-around the CC method.So I make sure to practice extensively with draw/rapid 1st shot from my method of CC in order to try to mitigate the handicap it forces on me.
    Not to do so would be utterly foolish. Oddly though, a surprising number of CC folks who pack one every day, rarely-if ever- actually practice drawing and firing from their mode of CC (be it pocket, ankle, IWB or whatever). Instead you see them at controlled firing ranges picking up a pistol off a bench, and plinking holes into stationary,paper targets..
    That practice method alone is going to do them no good whatsoever if/when they ever actually have to draw and fire in a real life shooting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Cover is great when it's immediately available. When it's not, however, a single second looking for cover means five less shots I can throw at a BG.



    I practice both CC and OC draws all the time. I'm down to 1.2 seconds for CC, and 0.25 seconds for the latter. That's about 5 shots worth.

    Put simply, if cover is IMMEDIATELY available, I might take it. If the situation is critical enough that I should take cover, it's probably critical enough I should probably take action, instead.
    With good situational awareness, you should already know if cover is available. Even if it isn't, at the moment you know things are going south, it's usually a good idea to move. If you don't practice shooting while you move, you should.

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    One factor everyone has neglected in this discussion is that the perp, who has drawn on you, knows that you have a gun if you OC & therefore might be inclined to shoot if he sees any movement towards your gun. He knows that your movement is a major threat to him. BUT if he has no idea that you are hiding a gun under your shirt then he might, and I say only might, hesitate to fire since he isn't sure that what you are doing is a lethal threat to him. Maybe this hesitation only is long enough to equal the playing field with the OC victim. The problem is no two situations are exactly alike & no two perps will react exactly alike. There is no way of knowing if OCing or CCing is the better choice until the lead flies. That's my opinion & yes it means something.
    Last edited by ET.; 05-01-2011 at 12:27 PM. Reason: Added a banana & a monkey!!!
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    You have sooo much to learn.

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